FOBT roulette is rigged (again)
im not down on roulette either fobt or casino or online
online roulette is definitely "rigged" no point questioning that
as for covering every number, or one number the odds are still 36/1 and i understand that fully, but until someone reverse-engineers the software and proves me wrong, i will always believe that the fobt is random-with a hint of 'no you're not having that number cause i dont want to pay a big win at the minute'
you can do funny things with the fobt, when ive been up on it, i mess around for ages to see what it will do.. play with it with minimum bets for a while
ive bet on black over and over and managed to get it to do 14 winning blacks in a row
bet on one number over and over, then move the chip after about 10 failing spins, and it shows that number
play 2 terminals at a time, pressing start at the same time, bet the same on both, and you get the same outcome, bet opposite on both and watch it lose on both..
it seems like, you either get a winning or losing spin, and to make sure the rng isnt exploitable the losing spin dosnt show the number it picked, just gives any number you havent bet on..so that the last numbers and hot and cold numbers look good
im not some bitter addict who spends my life sweating infront of these things, im genunely up on them, i play them for a laugh, and have been stupidly lucky. the bloke running a local bookies used to come and watch me "to make sure i wasnt doing anything" when i played cause i won too often, and he used to piss himself at my 'system'
online roulette is definitely "rigged" no point questioning that
as for covering every number, or one number the odds are still 36/1 and i understand that fully, but until someone reverse-engineers the software and proves me wrong, i will always believe that the fobt is random-with a hint of 'no you're not having that number cause i dont want to pay a big win at the minute'
you can do funny things with the fobt, when ive been up on it, i mess around for ages to see what it will do.. play with it with minimum bets for a while
ive bet on black over and over and managed to get it to do 14 winning blacks in a row
bet on one number over and over, then move the chip after about 10 failing spins, and it shows that number
play 2 terminals at a time, pressing start at the same time, bet the same on both, and you get the same outcome, bet opposite on both and watch it lose on both..
it seems like, you either get a winning or losing spin, and to make sure the rng isnt exploitable the losing spin dosnt show the number it picked, just gives any number you havent bet on..so that the last numbers and hot and cold numbers look good
im not some bitter addict who spends my life sweating infront of these things, im genunely up on them, i play them for a laugh, and have been stupidly lucky. the bloke running a local bookies used to come and watch me "to make sure i wasnt doing anything" when i played cause i won too often, and he used to piss himself at my 'system'
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Matt Vinyl
- Senior Member
- Posts: 7198
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 6:56 pm
- Location: Lost in the outback, Bryan
Coming from a programming background myself, I've had a lot of involvement in the building of RNGs and they can be accomplished in many different ways.
Not that I've ever had any involvement with Roulette (I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to playing it!) but...
I just got this sequence from the most basic RNG (built into Excel - which incidentally, was used to select how the boxes were to be distributed in the TV version of DOND!
)
34
36
31
27
13
5
8
23
3
11
3
27
24
27
13
16
26
7
6
27
35
16
12
22
22
32
35
34
5
16
27 appears 4 times and 22 appears twice - in consecutive 'rolls'.
Here's the same sequence sorted in ascending order:
3
3
5
5
6
7
8
11
12
13
13
16
16
16
22
22
23
24
26
27
27
27
27
31
32
34
34
35
35
36
Would there be conspiracies over whether this was a fixed distribution of numbers? Just some food for thought.
Not that I've ever had any involvement with Roulette (I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to playing it!) but...
I just got this sequence from the most basic RNG (built into Excel - which incidentally, was used to select how the boxes were to be distributed in the TV version of DOND!
)34
36
31
27
13
5
8
23
3
11
3
27
24
27
13
16
26
7
6
27
35
16
12
22
22
32
35
34
5
16
27 appears 4 times and 22 appears twice - in consecutive 'rolls'.
Here's the same sequence sorted in ascending order:
3
3
5
5
6
7
8
11
12
13
13
16
16
16
22
22
23
24
26
27
27
27
27
31
32
34
34
35
35
36
Would there be conspiracies over whether this was a fixed distribution of numbers? Just some food for thought.
"And do you ever contradict yourself, Minister?" "Well, yes and no..."
no, because the string in the order it was drawn doesnt have 3 in a row, then one other number then 2 more then a few numbers later another string of similar pattern with another number..
if it was
27
27
27
04
27
27
15
31
27
04
11
04
28
04
04
04
27
27
which is probably an exaggeration, but a nearly example string from a fobt
if it was
27
27
27
04
27
27
15
31
27
04
11
04
28
04
04
04
27
27
which is probably an exaggeration, but a nearly example string from a fobt
The one thing that all of our great minds are forgetting, is that the wheel in a casino doesnt have a memory, so therefore the fobt should not be looked at as having any sort of memory therefore the same number 3 times in ten spins for example is acceptable.
Casinos and fobt machines simply display the history in order to influence your betting and make you believe that certain numbers are due, hence like a deal red boxing for 50 quid but not doing anything!
Numbers do repeat. Quite a lot. This is actually evidence that it is not fixed in any way, as if it wasn't truly random, I don't believe you would see as many repeats as you do. Sometimes I play a few test bets. I.e. pound on red and black, not bothered if a zero comes in , simply to get a look at whats come in, then pick a couple of the numbers and then hope for a repeat.
It can actually work quite well sometimes. Play with the wheel or against the wheel, the choice is yours!
Finaly, All types of Gambling are full of inapropriate beliefs. From granny button-bashing to 'it's dropping so it must pay-lol' to 'zero hasn't come for 100 spins so it must be due.
Casinos and fobt machines simply display the history in order to influence your betting and make you believe that certain numbers are due, hence like a deal red boxing for 50 quid but not doing anything!
Numbers do repeat. Quite a lot. This is actually evidence that it is not fixed in any way, as if it wasn't truly random, I don't believe you would see as many repeats as you do. Sometimes I play a few test bets. I.e. pound on red and black, not bothered if a zero comes in , simply to get a look at whats come in, then pick a couple of the numbers and then hope for a repeat.
It can actually work quite well sometimes. Play with the wheel or against the wheel, the choice is yours!
Finaly, All types of Gambling are full of inapropriate beliefs. From granny button-bashing to 'it's dropping so it must pay-lol' to 'zero hasn't come for 100 spins so it must be due.
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trayhop123
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4901
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:21 pm
- Location: leicester
ok ,,,,,,, look im not gonna be a closed book about this , im open to the concept that maybe there not rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i think spyders quote below could be the most viable
''it seems like, you either get a winning or losing spin, and to make sure the rng isnt exploitable the losing spin dosnt show the number it picked, just gives any number you havent bet on..so that the last numbers and hot and cold numbers look good''
so maybe not rigged in the ripping you off sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but definitely tamperd with
im not 100% sure ,,,,,,,,, afterall unless your the programmer , who honestly knows??
my opinion is staying with rigged though , 5same numbers from 10 on an EVERYDAY EVERY SESH occurrence is just too much for me to swallow as faulty programming
so im gonna close my end of the argument with this .,,,,,,,,,,,,
i would honestly go and buy a cheap argos jobby wheel , and give any of you 1000/1 odds that you wont ever hit 5same numbers from 10 spins ,,,,,,,,,
on fobt ,,,,,,,,,,,,, i wouldn't even give you 5/1 odds
draw your own conclusions from that.
lee.
''it seems like, you either get a winning or losing spin, and to make sure the rng isnt exploitable the losing spin dosnt show the number it picked, just gives any number you havent bet on..so that the last numbers and hot and cold numbers look good''
so maybe not rigged in the ripping you off sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but definitely tamperd with
im not 100% sure ,,,,,,,,, afterall unless your the programmer , who honestly knows??
my opinion is staying with rigged though , 5same numbers from 10 on an EVERYDAY EVERY SESH occurrence is just too much for me to swallow as faulty programming
so im gonna close my end of the argument with this .,,,,,,,,,,,,
i would honestly go and buy a cheap argos jobby wheel , and give any of you 1000/1 odds that you wont ever hit 5same numbers from 10 spins ,,,,,,,,,
on fobt ,,,,,,,,,,,,, i wouldn't even give you 5/1 odds
draw your own conclusions from that.
lee.
Little discipline = BIG issue
**** ****
**** ****
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Matt Vinyl
- Senior Member
- Posts: 7198
- Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 6:56 pm
- Location: Lost in the outback, Bryan
There is some truth in that, but it then depends on your definition of random.we still cannot build a machine or computer that is truly random.
Wiki Linkage"And do you ever contradict yourself, Minister?" "Well, yes and no..."
i was stupid enough to let these filthy machines almost ruin my life. They are fixed, there is no doubt about that. you're less likely to see this when you are playing with a few quid, its always more random then, but when you're playing big bucks for long periods of time its so obvious. last time i played a few weeks ago i was playing £100 a spin with the maximum on zero, i'd break about even for a few spins, then lose the lot, then break even for a few spins, then lose the lot, then a decent win followed by 3 or 4 losers. never saw a zero in hundreds of spins. then I'm about skint and playing 20p bets and sure enough zero comes in 3 or 4 times in the next dozen or so spins. fair enough you could say this is bad luck, but it was following these patterns on a daily basis. ive had 500 quid in credit, covered most numbers, and seen one of the few numbers i didn't cover come in 5 times in a row (it was 27, i hate that number).
they tease you by landing next door to your big money numbers, bet on zero and see how many times 26 comes in, hmm maybe i up my stake on 26, then watch how many times 3 comes in. spin with your last £100, and it will usually pay slightly less than your steak in the hope that you'll put another £20 in to repeat you bet.
they are a complete mindf**k, designed to mess with your head. of course they have to pay out some time, so you can sometimes have a good day. my local bookie ran out of money one day because the machines had been "going nuts all week", sure enough for the next few weeks nobody won, he said he hadn't paid out a four figure sum in a whole month.
I'll never touch them again and my local bookies has lost a good customer, i could handle a few bad days but to me it was too obvious that they are rigged. they're almost vindictive.
apparently they just provide a list of numbers to prove to the authorities that they are random. it would be more interesting to see a list of numbers together with a list of where the money was on that spin.
im gonna stick to my football coupons from now on.
they tease you by landing next door to your big money numbers, bet on zero and see how many times 26 comes in, hmm maybe i up my stake on 26, then watch how many times 3 comes in. spin with your last £100, and it will usually pay slightly less than your steak in the hope that you'll put another £20 in to repeat you bet.
they are a complete mindf**k, designed to mess with your head. of course they have to pay out some time, so you can sometimes have a good day. my local bookie ran out of money one day because the machines had been "going nuts all week", sure enough for the next few weeks nobody won, he said he hadn't paid out a four figure sum in a whole month.
I'll never touch them again and my local bookies has lost a good customer, i could handle a few bad days but to me it was too obvious that they are rigged. they're almost vindictive.
apparently they just provide a list of numbers to prove to the authorities that they are random. it would be more interesting to see a list of numbers together with a list of where the money was on that spin.
im gonna stick to my football coupons from now on.
Apparently Pricewaterhousecoppers do the auditing on these things and I believe it is as basic as producing a report to show the % of how often the different number occur and so this is their justification of them not being rigged.
I always load up on 13 and 11 and I have seen with remarkable consistenancy the occasions when these numbers never show up on high stakes and once I lower the stake they start coming out the woodwork - in a way designed to mock and play with your mind!
I always load up on 13 and 11 and I have seen with remarkable consistenancy the occasions when these numbers never show up on high stakes and once I lower the stake they start coming out the woodwork - in a way designed to mock and play with your mind!
For me, I'd say they are no way as fair a a casino wheel.
I was watching a punter laying out the maximum, leaving only two numbers out just to see these two come out four times in succession. When his was down to his last dregs, the numbers he was on big started coming in until he had enough for another max bet then promptly wiped him out completely.
Then there was another guy who used to bet just on zero & thirty three.
He claimed to make so much and even showed me pictures of his winning tickets on his phone. £4000 and such.
I heard he had lost everything he had soon after.
I was watching a punter laying out the maximum, leaving only two numbers out just to see these two come out four times in succession. When his was down to his last dregs, the numbers he was on big started coming in until he had enough for another max bet then promptly wiped him out completely.
Then there was another guy who used to bet just on zero & thirty three.
He claimed to make so much and even showed me pictures of his winning tickets on his phone. £4000 and such.
I heard he had lost everything he had soon after.
GREEN, YELLOW, BLUE, RED, YELLOW - EXPLAIN THAT!
If you want a big yellow and you're too green to know where it is, let me put some colour in your wallet and hopefully the hills won't have eyes for your small bets.
Yellow came in nine times and missed nine times. I guess the terminal got off Scott free, but I'm only Martal, and have other things to do, so if you want to know, then PM.
If you want a big yellow and you're too green to know where it is, let me put some colour in your wallet and hopefully the hills won't have eyes for your small bets.
Yellow came in nine times and missed nine times. I guess the terminal got off Scott free, but I'm only Martal, and have other things to do, so if you want to know, then PM.
JG
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barafear799
- Junior Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:19 pm
- Location: London
Hi,
Just joined - but have been reading these forums on & off for a while.
Just read this whole thread - and there a number of interesting thoughts - however, it appears that most people seem to miss the most obvious point (until a poster a few posts back) and that is that on fobts, the machine knows where you place your bet - and how much - therefore the "winning" number is based on this. As for audits and suchlike, of course it needs to be based on the auditor placing a real-life stake on a machine and pressing go. I pretty much agree with the very first post in this thread that they play to about 88% rather than 97%. Here's a few musings:
Bookies own most of the dog tracks from where BAGS races are taken - therefore they control the betting market - the average SP % makeup on a bags race is 130%+ (ie: a return of around 76% for the punter) -
They run their own "virtual" races - and the betting on these is "fixed" - again to a high %.
Nearly everything they do they can fix the price - they used to be able to fix the price of horses a while back - before the days of betfair etc. - because they'd back a horse down at the track etc etc.
So why would they be so welcoming in offering the punter a betting opportunity with only a 3% edge to the house. I agree that someone playing a fobt is likely to play more than 1 spin (then again, people have been know to bet on every dog race) - ok I'll leave that hanging in the air.
as for the people who say there is no need to fix it, and that roulette is a game with a negative expectation etc etc - others have even quoted (elsewhere on the web forums etc) that because the negative edge is 3%, then if you start off with £50, then you should expect to lose it in 10-15 spins or whatever (as in after 1 spin, you'll be down to 48.50, then 47, then 45.50, etc etc).
However, this all supposes that you lose!!! It is possible to win!! And depending on "how many numbers" you bet on - then there should be an expectation that you should get a winning spin.
So you bet on, say, 30 numbers - you have an 80% chance of getting a positive return - now I am not saying if you sit down for an hour, pressing repeat, that every spin has to be a loser- but you should pretty much expect to have 80% spins where your numbers have come in - however, the opposite tends to happen - well almost. The most "unlikely" outcome hits you quick! Someone once said, if you go to a casino and bet in a certain way, and stay there for a few hours, you'll probably come out losing. On a fobt, you will lose, and it will be so much quicker (not purely because of the faster spin speed either).
Unfortunately, I am like a couple of the previous posters - I know I will probably lose - and probably quickly - and probably in "controversial" circumstances (like, bet on zero for 10 spins, leave it off and watch it come in and clear you out) - but I am drawn to them - they are there (the nearest casino is a 45 min drive away) - you go in and expect that with an average amount of luck, you can stick in £20, or £50 - and make a little bit - but inevitably, almost without fail, and without giving you a chance to collect a "decent" profit, they wipe you out. You come out and think - what have I done wrong?
Just a feeling in my stomach, but it would appear in the last 6-12 months, they have become so much worse. I'm sure some of you (who play them) can remember actually winning at some stage - nowadays, it's a struggle to even remeber pressing the collect button and going up to the counter.
I watched someone else play them in my local last week - she was varying her bets quite a lot - different numbers, different stakes etc etc.
It seemed clear after a short period that the only constant was her dipping into her purse to feed another note into the machine - every now and then her balance would shoot up to £80 or so (she was betting relatively low) - then a couple of sunny spins - first she obviously got the hump - just placed a bet of about £1.80 - just covering no.5 and all its splits and corners - hey presto - no.5 comes in!!! A few spins later - she decides to play £2 on no.1, £1 on no.2 and a few other small bets - total stake < £5. no.1 rolls in - she gets quite excited - and shows her mate on the next machine - then she presses repeat - and bumps up her bet to about £30 - covering lots more numbers - I was convnced that it would roll in a loser - but alas - I was wrong - no.4 came in, she had £1 on it (so a small profit) - next 3 spins all lost - and she was back to loading another note in -
started watching another guy next to her - he was betting big - £50-£100 a spin - he got up to a balance of about £350 - and then I just watched as spin after spin lost - and out he went empty handed.
Someone else on another one in the same shop - much the same -
I was sat there for about an hour - watching about 7 diff people play the 4 machines - and not one did I see collect anything......
Ok, roulette has a negative expectation - but tell me how often you see people cashing in their chips at a casino??
Just joined - but have been reading these forums on & off for a while.
Just read this whole thread - and there a number of interesting thoughts - however, it appears that most people seem to miss the most obvious point (until a poster a few posts back) and that is that on fobts, the machine knows where you place your bet - and how much - therefore the "winning" number is based on this. As for audits and suchlike, of course it needs to be based on the auditor placing a real-life stake on a machine and pressing go. I pretty much agree with the very first post in this thread that they play to about 88% rather than 97%. Here's a few musings:
Bookies own most of the dog tracks from where BAGS races are taken - therefore they control the betting market - the average SP % makeup on a bags race is 130%+ (ie: a return of around 76% for the punter) -
They run their own "virtual" races - and the betting on these is "fixed" - again to a high %.
Nearly everything they do they can fix the price - they used to be able to fix the price of horses a while back - before the days of betfair etc. - because they'd back a horse down at the track etc etc.
So why would they be so welcoming in offering the punter a betting opportunity with only a 3% edge to the house. I agree that someone playing a fobt is likely to play more than 1 spin (then again, people have been know to bet on every dog race) - ok I'll leave that hanging in the air.
as for the people who say there is no need to fix it, and that roulette is a game with a negative expectation etc etc - others have even quoted (elsewhere on the web forums etc) that because the negative edge is 3%, then if you start off with £50, then you should expect to lose it in 10-15 spins or whatever (as in after 1 spin, you'll be down to 48.50, then 47, then 45.50, etc etc).
However, this all supposes that you lose!!! It is possible to win!! And depending on "how many numbers" you bet on - then there should be an expectation that you should get a winning spin.
So you bet on, say, 30 numbers - you have an 80% chance of getting a positive return - now I am not saying if you sit down for an hour, pressing repeat, that every spin has to be a loser- but you should pretty much expect to have 80% spins where your numbers have come in - however, the opposite tends to happen - well almost. The most "unlikely" outcome hits you quick! Someone once said, if you go to a casino and bet in a certain way, and stay there for a few hours, you'll probably come out losing. On a fobt, you will lose, and it will be so much quicker (not purely because of the faster spin speed either).
Unfortunately, I am like a couple of the previous posters - I know I will probably lose - and probably quickly - and probably in "controversial" circumstances (like, bet on zero for 10 spins, leave it off and watch it come in and clear you out) - but I am drawn to them - they are there (the nearest casino is a 45 min drive away) - you go in and expect that with an average amount of luck, you can stick in £20, or £50 - and make a little bit - but inevitably, almost without fail, and without giving you a chance to collect a "decent" profit, they wipe you out. You come out and think - what have I done wrong?
Just a feeling in my stomach, but it would appear in the last 6-12 months, they have become so much worse. I'm sure some of you (who play them) can remember actually winning at some stage - nowadays, it's a struggle to even remeber pressing the collect button and going up to the counter.
I watched someone else play them in my local last week - she was varying her bets quite a lot - different numbers, different stakes etc etc.
It seemed clear after a short period that the only constant was her dipping into her purse to feed another note into the machine - every now and then her balance would shoot up to £80 or so (she was betting relatively low) - then a couple of sunny spins - first she obviously got the hump - just placed a bet of about £1.80 - just covering no.5 and all its splits and corners - hey presto - no.5 comes in!!! A few spins later - she decides to play £2 on no.1, £1 on no.2 and a few other small bets - total stake < £5. no.1 rolls in - she gets quite excited - and shows her mate on the next machine - then she presses repeat - and bumps up her bet to about £30 - covering lots more numbers - I was convnced that it would roll in a loser - but alas - I was wrong - no.4 came in, she had £1 on it (so a small profit) - next 3 spins all lost - and she was back to loading another note in -
started watching another guy next to her - he was betting big - £50-£100 a spin - he got up to a balance of about £350 - and then I just watched as spin after spin lost - and out he went empty handed.
Someone else on another one in the same shop - much the same -
I was sat there for about an hour - watching about 7 diff people play the 4 machines - and not one did I see collect anything......
Ok, roulette has a negative expectation - but tell me how often you see people cashing in their chips at a casino??