Thats exactly what i am saying though. Its a JP board stuck in the middle of a dead patch, which happens on both machines.
As for Nuns being very progressive, that is true. But so is VIU, which is why every man and his dog knows how to play them inside out. I just cant buy your every board is random to some extent theory. The machine would make no money if it was semi random. It is set to a %, and will progress.
Only older machines that pick can be excluded here i should think, certainly no newer ones ive played (and that is a fair few) have done anything like you have said.
Matt
ALL FIRED UP
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Matt Vinyl
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Yup...
...And as we all know, almnost every machine chucks in a (seemingly random) top board / IM / JP, when it appears dead as a diddled dodo...
Does anyone remember old JPM machines? On a certain percentage, they'd be as tight as, well, something pretty tight, and then roll in the JP from no-where. If there was a further gamble to be made to a streak type feature, if you lost it, the next spin would be JP. And on, and on, until you collected it or one the top gamble. Would then go back to being tight. Just to make sure the percentage levelled.
To a lot of people (more casual players) this'd seem extremely random!
Maybe a bit of a different subject what I've just said, but there are similarities.
...And as we all know, almnost every machine chucks in a (seemingly random) top board / IM / JP, when it appears dead as a diddled dodo...
Does anyone remember old JPM machines? On a certain percentage, they'd be as tight as, well, something pretty tight, and then roll in the JP from no-where. If there was a further gamble to be made to a streak type feature, if you lost it, the next spin would be JP. And on, and on, until you collected it or one the top gamble. Would then go back to being tight. Just to make sure the percentage levelled.
To a lot of people (more casual players) this'd seem extremely random!
Maybe a bit of a different subject what I've just said, but there are similarities.
"And do you ever contradict yourself, Minister?" "Well, yes and no..."
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Cardinal Sin
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I'm not claiming to be the world's greatest expert on Vamp it up, but here's my tuppenceworth.
Machines generally, as we know, are fixed. There are notable exceptions, such as powerball, random repeater, gobsmacked and s16, but even these machines are designed to weigh the odds in favour of the manufacturer.
We all know that a lot of machines offer £2 boards until it's ready to pay out again, but because the payout is such for a huge number of spins, there is no reason for it to stick so rigidly to its payout percentage. What (I think) the manus of VIU have done is to stick in the odd well-paying board in AT RANDOM (or as random as you can make it). It keeps people's interest in the game, even when people know it has paid out big.
However, although this high-paying board comes along at "random", whenever you land on the board, it has already decided on the maximum amount you can win. If you miss it and die, it will get carried over to another "random" board in the future.
Surely it would be foolhardy to incorporate a random element into trail games like this? The exact same effect (to the player) could be achieved by using pre-determined boards, without any dangers of the payout percentage being manipulated over the long term.
Having said all that, the percentage can also be manipulated wildly with the PAR trick... so where does that fit in?
Machines generally, as we know, are fixed. There are notable exceptions, such as powerball, random repeater, gobsmacked and s16, but even these machines are designed to weigh the odds in favour of the manufacturer.
We all know that a lot of machines offer £2 boards until it's ready to pay out again, but because the payout is such for a huge number of spins, there is no reason for it to stick so rigidly to its payout percentage. What (I think) the manus of VIU have done is to stick in the odd well-paying board in AT RANDOM (or as random as you can make it). It keeps people's interest in the game, even when people know it has paid out big.
However, although this high-paying board comes along at "random", whenever you land on the board, it has already decided on the maximum amount you can win. If you miss it and die, it will get carried over to another "random" board in the future.
Surely it would be foolhardy to incorporate a random element into trail games like this? The exact same effect (to the player) could be achieved by using pre-determined boards, without any dangers of the payout percentage being manipulated over the long term.
Having said all that, the percentage can also be manipulated wildly with the PAR trick... so where does that fit in?
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king_conspiracy
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Thats more the point i was making (trying to make) Rich 
The board value is predetermined, not decided when you are playing on it. Even forcing a machine that offers say regular £4 boards will kill you on £2 sometimes....
The PAR trick is a programming flaw, and as such shouldnt really be fitting in to this anywhere. It got reprogrammed, but the machine still offered the odd high win boards in amongst low value ones, as any other AWP will do.
Matt
The board value is predetermined, not decided when you are playing on it. Even forcing a machine that offers say regular £4 boards will kill you on £2 sometimes....
The PAR trick is a programming flaw, and as such shouldnt really be fitting in to this anywhere. It got reprogrammed, but the machine still offered the odd high win boards in amongst low value ones, as any other AWP will do.
Matt
"Sixty percent of the time, it works, every time!"
lol I'm not convinced with this "random good board" theory, how many times on VIU for example have you got to £10 only to find the machine is actually completely dead - i.e. even on some pick a reel ones WHEN THEY ARE PICKING!! you could get to £15 on cash by fluke!... WHY oh WHY would the board value here be predetermined to be £15, when the machine is dead; when they are picking it's 100% they are dead.
I have seen LOADS of jp's come out of VIU's that have already been rinsed ( resulting in a £80+ cost for red boosting ), why would they have a predetermined value for these boards of £25 when the machine has already been rinsed?
If you get to £15 and the machine is predetermined, surely then this implies it's very happy and can be played out for the top - but that's not ALWAYS the case - the machine could be £80 of boosting clearly indicating that board was not "happy" but yet it offered £15... this random board theory is one explaination, like on nun's and roses random MS, but I'd say it's very rare on the latter, and happens all the time on the former, so that explains away that to some degree...
All in all, I'm saying just because the board offers £15, it doesn't indicate the machine is happy 100% of the time, it could have just been a lucky offering, and if this happens alot of the time, I find it hard to believe it is predetermined...
Also the machine could easily stick to a %age, spinning in the manner I described re: %age randomly spins, as with such weight on ? squares when dead, the chances are it will tend towards the %age in the long run.
I have seen LOADS of jp's come out of VIU's that have already been rinsed ( resulting in a £80+ cost for red boosting ), why would they have a predetermined value for these boards of £25 when the machine has already been rinsed?
If you get to £15 and the machine is predetermined, surely then this implies it's very happy and can be played out for the top - but that's not ALWAYS the case - the machine could be £80 of boosting clearly indicating that board was not "happy" but yet it offered £15... this random board theory is one explaination, like on nun's and roses random MS, but I'd say it's very rare on the latter, and happens all the time on the former, so that explains away that to some degree...
All in all, I'm saying just because the board offers £15, it doesn't indicate the machine is happy 100% of the time, it could have just been a lucky offering, and if this happens alot of the time, I find it hard to believe it is predetermined...
Also the machine could easily stick to a %age, spinning in the manner I described re: %age randomly spins, as with such weight on ? squares when dead, the chances are it will tend towards the %age in the long run.
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Cardinal Sin
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If you have a machine which never pays out anything above 2 pound until it's had a shedload pumped into it, nobody's ever going to play it.
Obviously, in some places this isn't the case, but in most bars and arcades this would hold true.
Solution: Throw in the odd good board to make it appear a bit more random and ensure people keep piling the shekels in.
And an added bonus: some "players" will see this high win and see it as a sign to force the machine. Therefore, even more money is being pumped into the machine.
The machine doesn't have to be happy to pay out a £15, it just has to be able to afford it. A machine goes dead after a streak cos it needs to recoup the money it paid out. Similarly, it can go dead before a streak cos it's saving up the money it will need to pay out.
WHY make a machine random when it doesn't need to be?
Obviously, in some places this isn't the case, but in most bars and arcades this would hold true.
Solution: Throw in the odd good board to make it appear a bit more random and ensure people keep piling the shekels in.
And an added bonus: some "players" will see this high win and see it as a sign to force the machine. Therefore, even more money is being pumped into the machine.
The machine doesn't have to be happy to pay out a £15, it just has to be able to afford it. A machine goes dead after a streak cos it needs to recoup the money it paid out. Similarly, it can go dead before a streak cos it's saving up the money it will need to pay out.
WHY make a machine random when it doesn't need to be?
lol ok last post on this topic as it's getting boring!!!
most bellfruits pay out £2/3 every board until a shed load has been put in or you get a cycled streak, doesnt stop idiots playing them!
VIU and clones dont streak so you can't really say that about them, also they don't "save up" before a top by giving loads of dead boards, although many other machines do
In my experience tbh, the machine has looked like it's randomly spinning round the board, and having played pick a reel ones for hours at a time, you get a real feel for how they are actually programmed.
Perhaps it's not random spins around the board ( with weights corresponding to how happy it is ), I suppose it will never be proved either way, but it seems like it to me, so we'll just leave it at that....
finally....
most bellfruits pay out £2/3 every board until a shed load has been put in or you get a cycled streak, doesnt stop idiots playing them!
VIU and clones dont streak so you can't really say that about them, also they don't "save up" before a top by giving loads of dead boards, although many other machines do
In my experience tbh, the machine has looked like it's randomly spinning round the board, and having played pick a reel ones for hours at a time, you get a real feel for how they are actually programmed.
Perhaps it's not random spins around the board ( with weights corresponding to how happy it is ), I suppose it will never be proved either way, but it seems like it to me, so we'll just leave it at that....
finally....
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king_conspiracy
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Im really sorry to carry this on Ob, And it has been an interesting thread....But i can certainly say that the two VIU's near me, im sure Sgt Snelly will back me up on this (1 in an arcade, 1 in a kebabby) DO streak. They play £1.20 - £4 boards for aaages and then after a certain amount has gone through. THEN they boost starts come in, extra lives, add streaks etc.....
Im not trying to disagree with everything you say, not at all...You seem like you have a lot of experience with these machines, But im pretty sure it all depends on the location of the machine, whether it is played aggressively etc.
But these VIU's would either be dead, a quick 5ver or the full VIU/JP/JP streak.
And no insults this time please....This is how they work round our area.
KIng.
Im not trying to disagree with everything you say, not at all...You seem like you have a lot of experience with these machines, But im pretty sure it all depends on the location of the machine, whether it is played aggressively etc.
But these VIU's would either be dead, a quick 5ver or the full VIU/JP/JP streak.
And no insults this time please....This is how they work round our area.
KIng.
I don't think anyone is saying the machine is random. Just the actual spin itself might be partly random although every possible position that could be landed on has odds and obviously if the machine is dead landing +3 cash or anything valuble like +3nudges is weighted lower than +2 repeats or something which are weighted higher..
I was playing an All Fired Up yesterday, it was dead two £7 boards, no boost, killing me very early on £1.60 and £2.00, shit numbers on the reels etc. On the next board (which cost £2) it looked like the same scenario but got red board. It landed skill so I took the bonus (add again) next move superstreak clean, used my add again for megastreak (at this point i was happy to get my money back from the dead boards) next move multi-add and it added AFU streak which went for a massive £40. The cash stack was less than £3 and the features were of a similar level. I can't see how a dead machine can throw in a £40 win randomly to make exciting gameplay because as it will have to suck so hard to come back up to its % and offer some really sick gameplay, unless of course, that this streak was, at least, partly free.
This is a very interesting thread, the best for a long time.
I was playing an All Fired Up yesterday, it was dead two £7 boards, no boost, killing me very early on £1.60 and £2.00, shit numbers on the reels etc. On the next board (which cost £2) it looked like the same scenario but got red board. It landed skill so I took the bonus (add again) next move superstreak clean, used my add again for megastreak (at this point i was happy to get my money back from the dead boards) next move multi-add and it added AFU streak which went for a massive £40. The cash stack was less than £3 and the features were of a similar level. I can't see how a dead machine can throw in a £40 win randomly to make exciting gameplay because as it will have to suck so hard to come back up to its % and offer some really sick gameplay, unless of course, that this streak was, at least, partly free.
This is a very interesting thread, the best for a long time.
I wouldn't call that a streak, more of a progression. I'd say the streak was consistently offerring big wins after a JP or AFU, which it can do if someone's done their absolutes beforehand, double JPs in consecutive boards are not massively uncommon.king_conspiracy wrote:Im really sorry to carry this on Ob, And it has been an interesting thread....But i can certainly say that the two VIU's near me, im sure Sgt Snelly will back me up on this (1 in an arcade, 1 in a kebabby) DO streak. They play £1.20 - £4 boards for aaages and then after a certain amount has gone through. THEN they boost starts come in, extra lives, add streaks etc.....Im not trying to disagree with everything you say, not at all...You seem like you have a lot of experience with these machines, But im pretty sure it all depends on the location of the machine, whether it is played aggressively etc.
But these VIU's would either be dead, a quick 5ver or the full VIU/JP/JP streak.
And no insults this time please....This is how they work round our area.
KIng.
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king_conspiracy
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I agree with most of that yeah...
These machines in my experience, if a "random" or whatever you want to call it spin has brought in a "freak" +3 cash or streak add, it usually results in a decision to take that tenner(or whatever cash mark), or streak/mega streak as the next spin results in that ill fated ? mark.
I just dont think you can have a basis for how "every machine model" plays based purely on your experience of those said machines in your area. Machines vary hugely in play (does it get battered often, is it mostly mug punters taking beer money etc etc) the location and type of play matters hugely in the way the machine reacts to play.
This is mostly why i have disagreed with some of the things said about AFU, because they simply did not produce results like that in my area.
King.
These machines in my experience, if a "random" or whatever you want to call it spin has brought in a "freak" +3 cash or streak add, it usually results in a decision to take that tenner(or whatever cash mark), or streak/mega streak as the next spin results in that ill fated ? mark.
I just dont think you can have a basis for how "every machine model" plays based purely on your experience of those said machines in your area. Machines vary hugely in play (does it get battered often, is it mostly mug punters taking beer money etc etc) the location and type of play matters hugely in the way the machine reacts to play.
This is mostly why i have disagreed with some of the things said about AFU, because they simply did not produce results like that in my area.
King.
lol ok, I know I said no more on this, but gotta reply to king....
In terms of your VIU/jp/jp streak, I propose you get the VIU when the machine is extremely happy, as in it may be adding again.... in this situation even a VIU streak will not kill the machine that much, and it may be happy afterwards...
In this case I PROPOSE you get somewhat lucky spins ( in that its not that happy but still abit of life, so no huge weight on ? spins ) on the proceding boards, that allow you to achieve a JP, which makes it look like it's streaking where in actuality it was just a lucky JP or 2 if you achieve one on the next board.
When the machine is dead, alot of weight goes on the spins to ?, so it may look like the board is blocked say at £2 or so, but you just got the weighted spins to ? in those occasions. The boards had a chance of giving the jp, just very slim
Getting jp from nearest win and so on, is certainly not controlled, the machine does NOT know not to spin to the remaining nudge you need for nearest win jp's, it won't recognise this is the Jp if it spins to the nudges squares, so you will the same chance as a normal board to spin to a nudges square ( ie. depending how dead it is the more weight to ? / less weight to nudges squares ). I know this as I have had countless nearest win jp's from ones that are picking and as such MUST be dead!
I maintain any board can be the jp, doesn't matter how happy it is, the happier it is, the more chance the machine will spin round alot and as such the more chance you will achieve a jp. In terms of randomness, by weighting spins as such, the machine will always tend towards the %age payout it wants to as eventually giving huge weight to ? squares will end up making the %age back up to the correct level as people will lose in the long run where boards are so weighted to losing, and by allowing random spins around the board, the machine appears more playable to everyone, ensuring better playability than blocked machines.
OK I'm sure that's covered everything, nice to see all the interest in the post
In terms of your VIU/jp/jp streak, I propose you get the VIU when the machine is extremely happy, as in it may be adding again.... in this situation even a VIU streak will not kill the machine that much, and it may be happy afterwards...
In this case I PROPOSE you get somewhat lucky spins ( in that its not that happy but still abit of life, so no huge weight on ? spins ) on the proceding boards, that allow you to achieve a JP, which makes it look like it's streaking where in actuality it was just a lucky JP or 2 if you achieve one on the next board.
When the machine is dead, alot of weight goes on the spins to ?, so it may look like the board is blocked say at £2 or so, but you just got the weighted spins to ? in those occasions. The boards had a chance of giving the jp, just very slim
Getting jp from nearest win and so on, is certainly not controlled, the machine does NOT know not to spin to the remaining nudge you need for nearest win jp's, it won't recognise this is the Jp if it spins to the nudges squares, so you will the same chance as a normal board to spin to a nudges square ( ie. depending how dead it is the more weight to ? / less weight to nudges squares ). I know this as I have had countless nearest win jp's from ones that are picking and as such MUST be dead!
I maintain any board can be the jp, doesn't matter how happy it is, the happier it is, the more chance the machine will spin round alot and as such the more chance you will achieve a jp. In terms of randomness, by weighting spins as such, the machine will always tend towards the %age payout it wants to as eventually giving huge weight to ? squares will end up making the %age back up to the correct level as people will lose in the long run where boards are so weighted to losing, and by allowing random spins around the board, the machine appears more playable to everyone, ensuring better playability than blocked machines.
OK I'm sure that's covered everything, nice to see all the interest in the post
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king_conspiracy
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This has been an interesting post, and everything you have said ob has been clearly said and explained, with definate experience backing it up. I do think you will face widespread disagreement in the fact that : -
"I maintain any board can be the JP"
There are certain boards that will only ever produce £1.20/pick a reel.
Other than that, ive learned a lot and enjoyed reading....Good work.
King.
"I maintain any board can be the JP"
There are certain boards that will only ever produce £1.20/pick a reel.
Other than that, ive learned a lot and enjoyed reading....Good work.
King.
I know you want to bow out this thread, sorry. But...ob wrote:
Getting jp from nearest win and so on, is certainly not controlled, the machine does NOT know not to spin to the remaining nudge you need for nearest win jp's, it won't recognise this is the Jp if it spins to the nudges squares, so you will the same chance as a normal board to spin to a nudges square ( ie. depending how dead it is the more weight to ? / less weight to nudges squares ). I know this as I have had countless nearest win jp's from ones that are picking and as such MUST be dead!
Some dirty machines of this type (usually in service stations) seemingly have nearest and superhold JP written out, or, at least make it much harder to attain, inferring that the machine does know that one nudge or upgrade is required. The nearest win in picking mode can count as a pick; you've probably noticed if you get a nearest in a pick sequence it massively effects the pick value left in the machine, exactly as if you were to get the JP from PAR. Your theory still supports this though (the way I've understood it anyway) because instead of not knowing the JP is available with an additional nudge/upgrade it just weights heavily against it until it's ready, so can still beat the odds (so to speak) and give you the requisite feature/nudge/upgrade.