Hi,this might be a little over-ambitious for only my second attempt at a thread but here goes: I'm sure everyone on here would agree that this is scarcely a vintage time for quiz machines.This is probably down to a number of factors,some of which in my opinion include: fewer pubs,with fewer people in them with less disposable income,the quiz machine looking a little obsolete and dated compared to the games/applications available on smartphones and also this generation being less into the idea of trivia and quizzes than the previous.Now,perhaps the decline is terminal and irreversible,but I can still detect the faintest glimmer of hope;there is still some new content coming out from time to time so presumably the industry hasn't abandoned all hope just yet,I do still see machines getting played (though far less in previous years) and sometimes by younger people.Also,the government are making some concerned noises about AWPs and their addictive qualities,perhaps there are some tightening of regulations coming in that direction.I read elsewhere on this forum that a landlord had removed the quiz machine as that was taking £20 a week compared to the fruity taking £200.This seems unassailable logic but I think there is a kind of person who would never dream about putting money into a fruity,but will happily put a few quid in the quizzy.So,when I walk into a Wetherspoons with 7(!) fruit machines and no quiz machine,I can't help thinking that a quiz machine (with the right content) might bring in,I don't know,say £50? And that's an extra £50 the pub wouldn't otherwise get.
So,that massive preamble leads me to what I think needs to happen if the quizzy has a future: the content needs improving.On this forum,from the casual player to the hardened pro,we all have a vested interest in the future of the quiz machine,and also a wealth of knowledge on what constitutes a good game.My suggestion therefore is that we all post any ideas we have and maybe industry people might take up on an idea or two.It might not make any difference,but surely it's worth a go.
Here are some of my thoughts:
Have a decent prize structure: More people might be attracted to play by a jackpot of £10 and dare I say it,£20.Also,while I think there can be a place for £3 and £4 jackpots,they should always be offered.If you play a game for the first time and are offered a £1 jackpot after 30+ questions,I think there's a good chance you never play that game again.With judicious use of spoilers,the jackpot could always remain techinically possible.
On the subject of spoilers,try and make them a little less spirit-crushing? Obviously some questions have to be 'ungettable' but can it not be done in a slightly more interesting fashion than questions about who came higher in some meaningless poll or TV episode order or Gillingham managers et al?
Bring back some of the popular games from the past: A few popular games from the past might work well on relaunching.The very old ones may well even have a retro feel about them.Off the top of my head,I never understood why Fantasy Football Quiz wasn't updated as the high score board always seemed to be full.I think an Adders and Ladders type concept would work again.Also,the old idea of the faster you answer,the more points you get type of games.
Have some decent new word games: The games that involve spelling out words,spotting them or unscrambling anagrams have always seemed to be popular with the public.
Update the content regularly to keep it fresh: If people are aware that there's going to be new stuff frequently appearing,they may be more likely to check it out.I don't know the logistics of this,but is it possible to have a game that updates every Monday,say and asks questions about things that have happened the previous week? (or whatever time scale is practical).If anyone does decide to do that,the title 'Yesterday's News' might work well.
Continue with versions of TV shows: I would say that The Chase and Pointless are welcome additions (apart from the fractions of a pound as previously moaned about).Of newer shows,I think Tipping point would work well as a quiz game with good graphics.
I'll leave it there for now,if I have any more thoughts,I'll post them.The idea of giving the industry a helping hand might be 'pointless' but surely it's at least worth a go? I look forward to any comments.
Is it the end,or can anything be done?
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Topical2009
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Interesting post, to which I may reply at greater length when I've thought a bit more. I must say that I was delighted at the arrival of Pointless and the Chase as they always looked like winners for everyone - popular TV games with a simple structure which doesn't require much explanation, which means you're likely to attract players who might not play other games, or play any games at all. Pointless might be difficult if it wants to be, but at least if you get shafted, it's likely to be because you picked a right answer which wasn't good enough, rather than being asked about Scottish league managers' dates of birth. I've played a few games and won occasionally, though I may have been lucky (I was prepared to gamble/make an educated guess on the end game to find a right answer which probably wasn't popular - in other words, exactly like the real thing). Is anyone winning consistently on either of these two, I wonder?
Ever since the recession kicked in and the quiz machine was viewed as a cost centre instead of a profit centre it was always going to be problematic with cost cuts felt all the way down the supply chain. I had a ramble in another thread not so long ago which pretty much summed up my thoughts.
The future: there just isn't the money in the SWP industry any more for it to continue as it is, so some clever diversification is the only thing i can see which will prolong machines past the next 3-5 years.
The future: there just isn't the money in the SWP industry any more for it to continue as it is, so some clever diversification is the only thing i can see which will prolong machines past the next 3-5 years.
I have to say, muddle, that for a second ever thread you speak a lot of sense!
My own view is that there are really only two likely scenarios - that the current machine loss rate continues, in which case 3-5 years would actually look a very optimistic timescale, or that the position will stabilise somewhere about where we are now. Of course this question is closely linked to the general health of the pub trade - will pubs continue to close at the same rate or will the general pub market also stabilise?
One small example of the current situation - a reasonably sized and relatively affluent market town near me has gone from having 16 machines about two years ago to 6 now (with two more disappearances discovered on my trip there tonight). Only one of the 10 lost machines has been due to the pub itself closing. There is probably an argument to say that 16 machines was actually an unrealistic number for a town of its size to support but a 60% loss in a relatively short time tells its own story. It's not just as simple as the effect of each machine loss - if punters don't have one in their local, how much less likely is it that they will get in the habit of playing them when they do find one in another venue?
The one scenario I just can't envisage is a general upturn in the SWP business. That would seem about as likely as Man United winning the League this season... ;-)
My own view is that there are really only two likely scenarios - that the current machine loss rate continues, in which case 3-5 years would actually look a very optimistic timescale, or that the position will stabilise somewhere about where we are now. Of course this question is closely linked to the general health of the pub trade - will pubs continue to close at the same rate or will the general pub market also stabilise?
One small example of the current situation - a reasonably sized and relatively affluent market town near me has gone from having 16 machines about two years ago to 6 now (with two more disappearances discovered on my trip there tonight). Only one of the 10 lost machines has been due to the pub itself closing. There is probably an argument to say that 16 machines was actually an unrealistic number for a town of its size to support but a 60% loss in a relatively short time tells its own story. It's not just as simple as the effect of each machine loss - if punters don't have one in their local, how much less likely is it that they will get in the habit of playing them when they do find one in another venue?
The one scenario I just can't envisage is a general upturn in the SWP business. That would seem about as likely as Man United winning the League this season... ;-)
I would certainly agree the outlook looks grim.
A few years ago I illustrated a post about the decline of SWPs by saying that the number of SWPs in pubs walkable from my (central London) office at lunchtime had pretty much halved within a year or so. Since then, at least one or two others have gone. I think there is now four or five compared with 13 when I started working here in 2011.
Of particular note is that the nearest Wetherspoons to my office, on being refurbished, dispensed with its SWP entirely, replacing it with an AWP. As with NS, it’s not that pubs have closed, but rather that many have been gentrified/converted into craft ale bars or gastropubs and have dispensed with the machine at that time.
SWPs have gone from a fairly important role in my life (sad but true) to a very marginal one. I think I’ve played one once in the last month, for 20 minutes waiting for friends. The friends in question are keen quizzers but don’t play SWPs, and swiftly got bored because of the obscurity of the questions. If people like that lose interest, SWPs must hold almost no appeal for most members of the public.
For me the start of the end was HMRC’s change of rules a few years back. The industry responded by significantly raising difficulty levels and reliance on spoilers, which punished pretty much everyone bar the very top pros. A short-sighted move and one which has really killed the industry. The superb ‘Million Pound Drop’ (and to a lesser extent ‘The Chase’ and ‘Pointless’
shows the industry is still capable of producing good titles with decent gameplay, a decent chance of winning something, and tolerable graphics, but unfortunately there isn’t much else out there, and a lot of out-and-out dross on the cabinets I see.
I am a pessimist by nature and may be wrong, but I’d be surprised if we’ve got more than a year or two left. I hope the pros out there are playing lots and squirrelling as much away as they can in case their livelihood does disappear.
A few years ago I illustrated a post about the decline of SWPs by saying that the number of SWPs in pubs walkable from my (central London) office at lunchtime had pretty much halved within a year or so. Since then, at least one or two others have gone. I think there is now four or five compared with 13 when I started working here in 2011.
Of particular note is that the nearest Wetherspoons to my office, on being refurbished, dispensed with its SWP entirely, replacing it with an AWP. As with NS, it’s not that pubs have closed, but rather that many have been gentrified/converted into craft ale bars or gastropubs and have dispensed with the machine at that time.
SWPs have gone from a fairly important role in my life (sad but true) to a very marginal one. I think I’ve played one once in the last month, for 20 minutes waiting for friends. The friends in question are keen quizzers but don’t play SWPs, and swiftly got bored because of the obscurity of the questions. If people like that lose interest, SWPs must hold almost no appeal for most members of the public.
For me the start of the end was HMRC’s change of rules a few years back. The industry responded by significantly raising difficulty levels and reliance on spoilers, which punished pretty much everyone bar the very top pros. A short-sighted move and one which has really killed the industry. The superb ‘Million Pound Drop’ (and to a lesser extent ‘The Chase’ and ‘Pointless’
shows the industry is still capable of producing good titles with decent gameplay, a decent chance of winning something, and tolerable graphics, but unfortunately there isn’t much else out there, and a lot of out-and-out dross on the cabinets I see.I am a pessimist by nature and may be wrong, but I’d be surprised if we’ve got more than a year or two left. I hope the pros out there are playing lots and squirrelling as much away as they can in case their livelihood does disappear.
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cp999
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NS, you put me in mind of an old question "If current rates remain the same, what proportion of the world's population will be Elvis impersonators by the year 2030?" A: 1/2.
I can't dispute the pub closure/gentrification argument, but I will dispute the spoilers/blocking questions one. They have been around since the year dot, but people seem to have forgotten this. Fruit Jackpot Quiz had a music category where it seemed at least half the questions were about how long a song spent at No.1. Strike It Rich/Underground had an subcategory of "which B died oldest/youngest?" (and iirc most of them were the wrong way round), and a multitude of other similar drivel. Millionaire had questions on earliest patron saint day in the year, first of these four to win Nobel Prizes, first to win Eurovision etc etc. After 25ish questions in Risk and Aladdin's Cave gave almost nonstop blocking questions - with a hilarious bug (or was it a feature?) in them. I could go on.
I think there is a certain element of people getting older, more jaded, not being able to win (partly through playing less), and what they once viewed as half full is now half empty - or worse. What you find entertaining in a studenty way in your 20s tends to be a damn sight less interesting when you get older. On the other hand, I think quiz machines are inherently dull, and I don't care, seeing as it's been a very long time since I played one for "entertainment".
I can't dispute the pub closure/gentrification argument, but I will dispute the spoilers/blocking questions one. They have been around since the year dot, but people seem to have forgotten this. Fruit Jackpot Quiz had a music category where it seemed at least half the questions were about how long a song spent at No.1. Strike It Rich/Underground had an subcategory of "which B died oldest/youngest?" (and iirc most of them were the wrong way round), and a multitude of other similar drivel. Millionaire had questions on earliest patron saint day in the year, first of these four to win Nobel Prizes, first to win Eurovision etc etc. After 25ish questions in Risk and Aladdin's Cave gave almost nonstop blocking questions - with a hilarious bug (or was it a feature?) in them. I could go on.
I think there is a certain element of people getting older, more jaded, not being able to win (partly through playing less), and what they once viewed as half full is now half empty - or worse. What you find entertaining in a studenty way in your 20s tends to be a damn sight less interesting when you get older. On the other hand, I think quiz machines are inherently dull, and I don't care, seeing as it's been a very long time since I played one for "entertainment".
What a great period in time. Two of the finest "pro's games" I've ever had the pleasure of doing..grecian wrote:
For me the start of the end was HMRC’s change of rules a few years back. The industry responded by significantly raising difficulty levels and reliance on spoilers, which punished pretty much everyone bar the very top pros.
If a pro wasn't good or determined enough to put something significant aside in the last 5 years, he won't be doing it now.grecian wrote: I hope the pros out there are playing lots and squirrelling as much away as they can in case their livelihood does disappear.
Well, cp999, I guess the question of what is a spoiler depends on how good you are and how much you’re playing and there may be some truth in your suggestion that my playing a lot less and having other things going on nowadays might just mean that I’m far more ready to shout “spoilers!” for what is actually lack of knowledge. But I don’t know really: I always found it possible back in the day to do quite well without advanced spoiler knowledge (other than on a few titles) whereas I definitely feel nowadays they kick in quite early in most games and my lack of knowledge of them costs me.
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cp999
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You, of all people, I'd be particularly unlikely to make the "shout spoilers" accusation to - it was a person-non-specific and general point that if someone gradually drifts out of machine playing, they lose a certain feel and fluency for it. It's a slippery slope. I had a point where I was playing less for various reasons and I really had to work like the devil to bring things back to where they had been. Of course certain questions are clearly meant to block, even when I can answer them in my sleep (and then again there is other stuff I have trouble with). I will say that if I was considering starting playing machines "seriously" now, I just wouldn't bother, whereas when I did start, it was immediately obvious that it was worthwhile. And my GK is miles better now than it was then.grecian wrote:Well, cp999, I guess the question of what is a spoiler depends on how good you are and how much you’re playing and there may be some truth in your suggestion that my playing a lot less and having other things going on nowadays might just mean that I’m far more ready to shout “spoilers!” for what is actually lack of knowledge.
Hi,thanks for the intersting replies.On the subject of spoilers,it's certainly true that they've always been there but I think that while in the past they were a last line of defence as it were,nowadays they appear as a matter of course.Also,I do think they've become more mind-numbing;I'd much rather be asked how many weeks a song spent at number one than the total attendance of any team at home in one season for example.
What you describe,Nil,has probably happened in most towns across the country.That's certainly been my experience too.Some of it is pubs closing or attempting to look more upmarket as grecian describes but a lot of it is simply down to the pub deciding to get rid of their machine.And that has almost certainly has to be due to it not making much money.
So,to return to what I was saying earlier,anybody got any bright ideas? Since I started this thread,I've been slightly cheered by seeing machines get a fair bit of play,and attended a pub quiz where there were 15-20 teams,most of them students.Maybe there is still enough interest in quizzing to support a SWP industry that has decent games.
Here are a couple of my ideas: I don't know if anyone recalls this (what am I saying,of course people will) but at the time of the 2002 World Cup there was a game out based on it where you kept possession(or had a shot at goal) by answering a question correctly.If you won the World cup final you won a tenner.It was possibly too easy this game,but the concept was good.Something similar near this World Cup would be welcome.In fact,at the time of any significant event,a game connected to it would be a good idea.So,now there should be a game based on the Winter Olympics -then a film quiz round the time of the Oscars etc. I really think freshness of content is important (while maintaining old favourites) so that people would be frequently checking to see what's new.
Also,there seems few time-based games.I can only think of The Chase (anyone think that needs more spoilers?!) at this moment.There's been plenty of such games in the past.How about a game along these lines: You get 20 questions,you have to score so many points to win a tenner.The quicker you answer each question correctly,the more points you get.You don't get the jackpot,the points total drops a little.Simple as that.It could be protected from pro play by,after a win,setting the points total at a level where lightning reflexes would be required.Some spoilers could be used too of course!
Ok,I'll leave it there as I'm about to visit a succession of public houses,and sadly may not see a quiz machine all night.
What you describe,Nil,has probably happened in most towns across the country.That's certainly been my experience too.Some of it is pubs closing or attempting to look more upmarket as grecian describes but a lot of it is simply down to the pub deciding to get rid of their machine.And that has almost certainly has to be due to it not making much money.
So,to return to what I was saying earlier,anybody got any bright ideas? Since I started this thread,I've been slightly cheered by seeing machines get a fair bit of play,and attended a pub quiz where there were 15-20 teams,most of them students.Maybe there is still enough interest in quizzing to support a SWP industry that has decent games.
Here are a couple of my ideas: I don't know if anyone recalls this (what am I saying,of course people will) but at the time of the 2002 World Cup there was a game out based on it where you kept possession(or had a shot at goal) by answering a question correctly.If you won the World cup final you won a tenner.It was possibly too easy this game,but the concept was good.Something similar near this World Cup would be welcome.In fact,at the time of any significant event,a game connected to it would be a good idea.So,now there should be a game based on the Winter Olympics -then a film quiz round the time of the Oscars etc. I really think freshness of content is important (while maintaining old favourites) so that people would be frequently checking to see what's new.
Also,there seems few time-based games.I can only think of The Chase (anyone think that needs more spoilers?!) at this moment.There's been plenty of such games in the past.How about a game along these lines: You get 20 questions,you have to score so many points to win a tenner.The quicker you answer each question correctly,the more points you get.You don't get the jackpot,the points total drops a little.Simple as that.It could be protected from pro play by,after a win,setting the points total at a level where lightning reflexes would be required.Some spoilers could be used too of course!
Ok,I'll leave it there as I'm about to visit a succession of public houses,and sadly may not see a quiz machine all night.