FOBT - why its' not like _casino roulette

Roulette, Poker, Blackjack. Discuss your methods / experiences here.
Mr Bubbles
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Post by Mr Bubbles »

Very interesting. Just goes to show how much money is made on there machines.
pokerpete
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Post by pokerpete »

stephenjwz wrote:Have worked in various bookies, seen what

However if at the end of the day you started picking slips of paper at random, it'd be less suprising to have picked out 10 heads in a row - you've got thousands of 'heads' answers to choose from, why not a clump of them?.
I understand the point you're trying to make with the analogy but that's not right.

if at the end of your day you have thousands of peices of paper, roughly half with heads and half with tails written on them and you picked them up at random, the results would be the same as when you flip a coin, with the same streaks.

Derrin Brown, when making "The System" needed a continuous peice of film of him tossing 10 heads in a row. If I remember right, it took somewhere between 8 and 10 hours filming to get the shot.
arkwind
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Once And For All

Post by arkwind »

Right - im going to close this debate once and for all ok, i have worked in IT and programming for a number of years and the amount of time Random Number Genorators as a means to generating the final number is mentioned on this thread is sickening, i will tell you how these machines REALLY work once and for all.

The machines are FIXED ODDS BETTING MACHINES, they are programmed to take 30% of your cash input into the machine, rather than the usual 2.7% playing normal european roulette. So lets stop comparing this to casino roulette now - it is no more random than your pub fruit machine because the pay out systems are very similar.

Yes, this machine in theory genorates 'random' numbers but in fact this system works on whats called 'number allocated occurrence probability' - this means that in every spin, a string of for example 10 numbers 0-36 is genorated randomly - the system then decided out of these strings which number to display the win on based on your placed bets - say for example if the machine needs to recoup losses after a big win earlier, you can bet on all but the number 32 and the number 32 will come up over and over again and take your money to recoup its 30% edge over you. - here is another example

I place my bets on he thirds 1-12 and 24-36 and hit spin.

The system randomly generates these numbers using your so talked about 'random number genorator'

2-3-14-21-33-34

The system will note that if it displays 2,3,33 or 34 the user will win X amount, it compares this to how much it has won and loss and decides whether it is gonna pay out by spinning up 2,33,34 or wether it will take your money with 14, or 21.

This is how you see the craziness you wouldn't see in a casino like streaks of 4 numbers when you have bet on everything but that number and streaks of 17 blacks when you have only been betting red - its nothing to do with what you bet on at all - your playing a machine thats aiming to give you 70% of what you put in, its nothing to do with roulette at all, it only uses the same rules system as roulette, and thats where the similarity ends, your best of playing a real or online casino where the owners are happy with there 2.7% generated by the single 0.

This is where the pinciple or 'Trigger numbers' comes from because IN THEORY' if i can place my bet on every number generated by the Random Number Generator (RNG), i will guarantee my self that the machine has no option than to pay out, however this DOES NOT WORK because the RNG changes constantly, these machines are programmed by new 'avalanche' theory algorithms that when the seed is changed slightly the out come is completely different from the last spin, you can not forcast the out come of the RNG unless you have a replica of the algorithm, a replica of the Seed used to generate the number from, and an indication on how many times the algorithm has been used if the seed changes based on the output of the last time the algorithm was run.

Thats how these machines work - Enjoy throwing in your cheeky £10 every now and again, but if you want to throw in big money like some of the people i have seen (£2000-£3000) take £20 out of that for petrol money and drive to a real casino - soak up the atmosphere and play roulette with the traditional 2.7% edge

(P.S Sorry if i resurrected this thread - not sure now i have written all this)
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mr lugsy
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Post by mr lugsy »

so there you have it ,fixed odds betting terminals are not random,so ner ner na ner ner! Jolly welldone for this exposé. Perhaps another random debate is due.
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mr lugsy
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Post by mr lugsy »

btw ,welcome to the forum arkwind :D
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JG
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Post by JG »

I'd like to give arkwind an opportunity to explain how he is party to this information.

<<JG speaking to Arkwind directly, as if JG is Jeremy Kyle moving about on the studio floor and now looking at one of the contestants, sorry, guests>>

"So Arkwind, would you be able to divulge which software house you worked with to glean this FOBT expose? Or maybe just how you came to be party to this information?"

30% sounds stupidly high. The greyhound/virtual racing games run to a traditional book with an approx 20% bookmaker advantage. The 'implied' odds on most other games, err, imply a much smaller advantage.


I think of all the lads doing the L8s back in the day (I've got a £52 pot Scott - interestedings?!?) and think that they'd have noticed a 30% house edge given the number of spins/bets they'd sometimes have to make per machine.

My hunch is that arkwind is an aggrieved punter who wants to make up theories for what is just the inevitable appearance of bad luck.

You know, some days you'll stake £10,000 for £10,100 back and other days you'll stake £10,000 for £9,200 back and it'll all seem horribly unfair, but look closer at the figures, record them if needs be and over time you'll see it's mathematically sound.

The only exception to this in on line poker which is completely rigged and has temporarily been closed down whilst my tracker stats have been forwarded to Scotland Yard.

The other thing is variance, you can get mad variance betting £5 evens, red/blacks etc, as one guy said to me whilst I played a fruit machine, "roulette is a millionaire's game". That is actually very true, in fact, to really play and MASSIVE INVERTED COMMAS "defeat" roulette, I'd suggest a bankroll of neared a billion, nay, a trillion.

FOBT are not usually rigged.
On line poker is f*cking irritating, but not usually rigged.
Some B3 'random' fruit machines **may** be rigged ;)

Now for some conclusive sanctimony.

"The best roulette system is not to play roulette."


Did I put that full stop in the right place?
dazza33
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Post by dazza33 »

hi been reading this topic for a while and decided to contribute. The FOBT system works in the way Arkwind says which is a 'seeding system'. Everytime the button is pressed it sends 10 numbers to the machine and the terminal picks the number suited to the payout state. The reason the numbers which come out sometimes go in sequence is because the groups are sequenced. For e.g if the last spin was 12 the following spins group would be 12,21,24,13,31,23,32,11,2,32. If for e.g the machine was in payout state it would give the number with the correct win/or in reverse the worst pay out. If every number in that group was covered say with 3 pounds on each but the terminal wants you to lose it would again pick another 10 numbers till it finds you the losing number. The FOBTs are programmed deliberately so sequences happen to give the impression the machine can be read by the punter. e.g 12-21 13-31 0-10-20-30 and other numberous scenarios (the trigger number theory)). The info i got a while back from a leisure link guy who would upgrade/maintain FOBTs in the bookies in the area.
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mr lugsy
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Post by mr lugsy »

8)
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FOBTengineer
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Post by FOBTengineer »

Arkwind hit the nail on the head..Im a FOBt engineer working for sceptre leisure/videobet for my sins.we are trialing new FOBts at the moment in various bookies ive read every thread to the beginning...phew and it seems we have come a long way in our understanding of these machines..just like an AWP the fobt predetermines what number to generate from a string dependant on what number you placed your bets on...simple really its all about timing...
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JG
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Post by JG »

I don't see how these 'Leisure Link' guys can get privy to programming information. At the end of the day they're maintaining, updating and distributing machines on site and that's about the end of it. It's not like they've got a personal phone line to the programmer is it? Is this stream six numbers, ten numbers, thirty six numbers? What the hell? If ten numbers are all covered by the punter it'll think of another ten numbers? Why not just think of a losing number if it wants to lose and a winning number if it wants to win.
Now I don't know if these things are slightly rigged or totally random, but they definitely DO NOT pay to 70%, that really would be obvious and stupid.
Now listen. Just listen. I don't like these things any more than the next player, but then on pure luck gambles I'm usually slightly unlucky anyway. Not horribly so, my luck just runs a bit cold.
They may be rigged, they may not be, but making up conspiracy theories is silly. Please stop it.
gplayer
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Post by gplayer »

this is why i bet on sports
FOBTengineer
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Post by FOBTengineer »

To Answer 3g the string of numbers is determined after the player has chosen which numbers to place the bet..The machine is in total control..ps i dont work for leisure link i work for sceptre Gaming a subsiduary of videobet/playtech and yes we do know the programmers personally .not only do we service the machines/update them we are based in the same building as the programmers....in preston
bigv038
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Post by bigv038 »

Was up the live casino the oher night and witnessed the following sequence - 17, 0, 17, 0 ,17! :shock: Also see a number come in 5 times running and a different number come in 5 times out of 6 spins :shock: :shock: :shock:
Proving that anything is possible and stupid runs do happen on a live wheel.
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harry2
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Post by harry2 »

Create your own roulette on excel by typing

=RANDBETWEEN(0,36) and copying down the formula.
Roulette free since December 2011.
nr89
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Post by nr89 »

FOBT's should be illegal. I have spent my last 14 months of wages on them, most of the time only playing them with the intention of spending £10 but quite often turning into £200 sessions. I have put the maximum straight of £13 a good( or bad) 20 times and never hit. My maximum number is a £7 straight on 16 which i was surprised even come out. I have overdrafted my bank account to chase* my losses back to no avail. Addiction to FOBT's has caused me to have debts with my bank, lose my car, tested relationships with family. I always end up needing bailed out. Personally I think its all bullshit but very addictive. Im an arse. But a recovering one :)

* Like a headless chicken.
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