I was doing a search for "Roulette Rigged" a couple of days ago, and the search engine directed me to this interesting & lively forum. So I've decided to join up - I can't guarantee I will be a very active member, especially as I no longer gamble, but I would be pleased if existing members could take a look at my point..
Regarding whether or not F.O.B.T.s are rigged - I am an entrepreneur (currently "small-time"), and last year I hampered the progress of my businesses by gambling a lot of money in local Coral and William Hill bookmakers. I was surprised around April '05, when one day the 'QuickDraw' (Coral machine) produced a run of TWELVE 3rd Dozens in a ROW. The following day the William Hill (ITBOX) machine produced a consecutive run of EIGHT 3rd Dozens in a row. All those bets I was betting on 1st and 2nd dozens - lost about £300. (All in the space of 2 days!)
Whilst these events made me extremely upset & suspicious of the game being rigged, it was not until a few months later that I noticed something extremely worrying about the William Hill machines..
At both Coral and William Hill, (and I believe all other bookmakers), the pseudo-random result of the roulette wheel is, it is claimed, drawn by an independent third-party computer and sent down the internet to the machine which then determines if your bet was won or lost. Whilst playing at William Hill, I would regularly notice that on some bets, if you look at the graphic of the spinning wheel carefully, suddenly it would jerk about a centimetre or so, or sometimes more. Three or four seconds later the ball would land. Now I was only betting on Reds / Blacks, and Column Thirds, but whenver I saw this "screen jerk", I promise you, about 9 times out of 10 the bet would be lost. It suggested to me that the result was being changed. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon occuring? Why would a bookmaker want to MAKE IT LOOK like a machine was cheating.
It would be very sad if these companies are all cheating. If they did not cheat, and just used the 2.7% margin from the addition of an additional number (0), then they would still make this percentage, and profits can still be high with high turnover. But the result of what I believe is rigging is that I used to have to go to the cash machine to put in another £100+, sometimes several times over, (because I was a bad loser!) So the bookies WOULD have been making more money out of me by instigating rigging. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has noticed this "screen-jerk" phenomenon occuring, at William Hill or others..
FOBT - why its' not like _casino roulette
What the hell, i'ts a good debatable thread! 
Yes I have noticed the screen jerk and yes, it always occurs when I am not gonna win.
Ergo, change machine, screen jerk is not apparent and win/lose comes back in the equation.
I have NEVER won after someone has raped the m/c before me! EVER! anything above a £200 bank collected and the m/c goes on suck.
I have ALWAYS won, when someone else is losing money hand over fist next to me, by betting smaller amounts than them on different numbers.
You can make moneyfrom these, just not everytime!
As for numbers repeating, it happens more than in a casino but not enough to make a profit from,
Conclusion? they are rigged, but just like AWP's you can shark and as long as you are not too greedy and bet sensibly you can win...................just like AWP's!
Yes I have noticed the screen jerk and yes, it always occurs when I am not gonna win.
Ergo, change machine, screen jerk is not apparent and win/lose comes back in the equation.
I have NEVER won after someone has raped the m/c before me! EVER! anything above a £200 bank collected and the m/c goes on suck.
I have ALWAYS won, when someone else is losing money hand over fist next to me, by betting smaller amounts than them on different numbers.
You can make moneyfrom these, just not everytime!
As for numbers repeating, it happens more than in a casino but not enough to make a profit from,
Conclusion? they are rigged, but just like AWP's you can shark and as long as you are not too greedy and bet sensibly you can win...................just like AWP's!
Firefox, good to hear your comments. No wonder William Hill can now afford to give away a £100 free match bet for new customers! I hope William Hill have not caused any suicides by "screen jerk result modifications". I have not played them for 3 months, so it was good to hear someone else's appraisal of what's going on with these specific machines.
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stuart4010
- Senior Member
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:48 pm
I have to agree with what Firefox said, the times i come away with a profit is when someone next to me, or the person playing it before me has been playing heavy, and lost heavy. Then, with small bets, i've built up a decent £100 or so bank, and walked away. Of course, it's the time you go on and you say "it must come in sooner or later" that makes the money for Mr. Hill et al.
Here's a thought, why don't they just put a big empty crisp box in the bookies, and everyone can throw in a tenner. Then, at the end of the night, everyone who threw in a tenner gets back an envelope, some containing amounts >£10, some <£10. Mr. Hill then keeps 30% of what went in. It's a very crap analogy, but isn't that just what happens with a FOBT??
Here's a thought, why don't they just put a big empty crisp box in the bookies, and everyone can throw in a tenner. Then, at the end of the night, everyone who threw in a tenner gets back an envelope, some containing amounts >£10, some <£10. Mr. Hill then keeps 30% of what went in. It's a very crap analogy, but isn't that just what happens with a FOBT??
This is the most pointless type of topic you can ever have. It is JUST like debating religion, NO ONE here will prove one way or another who is correct so I have no idea why people are getting all high and mighty for either cause.
The only people who MIGHT be proved right are the ones who believe it to be fixed as, if this was ever proven, it would be well communicated to the public and presumably some pretty nasty lawsuits would follow for the bookies. this doesn't mean they are right though.
Why do so many mugs play them? the odds are against you from the start, but then if you're a preacher of the "FRBT" rather than "FOBT" it makes even less sense.
The only people who MIGHT be proved right are the ones who believe it to be fixed as, if this was ever proven, it would be well communicated to the public and presumably some pretty nasty lawsuits would follow for the bookies. this doesn't mean they are right though.
Why do so many mugs play them? the odds are against you from the start, but then if you're a preacher of the "FRBT" rather than "FOBT" it makes even less sense.
[quote="""]This is the most pointless type of topic you can ever have. It is JUST like debating religion, NO ONE here will prove one way or another who is correct so I have no idea why people are getting all high and mighty for either cause.
[quote]
<laugh> but you;re more than happy to resurrect the thread?
You big old tree you!
[quote]
<laugh> but you;re more than happy to resurrect the thread?
You big old tree you!
<laugh> but you;re more than happy to resurrect the thread?
You big old tree you! [/quote]
The resurrection is complete!
My opinion for what its worth is that these machines are fixed in some way. Of course I don’t have any evidence (so I guess my opinion is totally worthless!) but it’s a gut feeling that has built up over time. Fortunately I kicked the bad habit (unlike a mate who still throws dosh at them) but did spend 2/3 years playing regularly. I’d say overall I’m 10’s of thousands out of pocket as a result.
For one thing, having played roulette in real casinos in Australia and N America I feel that sequences that come up regularly on FOBT do not do so as often on real tables. I’ve never seen the same number come up 3 times in a row in a casino but have many times on FOBT for example. Maybe its just because I've spent more time on FOBT's I dont know.
My personal conspiracy theory is that the companies that designed and run these machines must have consulted psychologists and other experts in human behaviour and model the machines response to suit.
I suppose the only solution is for regular players on fobt and real casinos to record results and have the data analysed by a statistician.
But whether anything underhand is going on or not it’s a mugs game for sure. If you must bet then do it on sporting events where theres some level of skill involved.
You big old tree you!
[/quote]The resurrection is complete!
My opinion for what its worth is that these machines are fixed in some way. Of course I don’t have any evidence (so I guess my opinion is totally worthless!) but it’s a gut feeling that has built up over time. Fortunately I kicked the bad habit (unlike a mate who still throws dosh at them) but did spend 2/3 years playing regularly. I’d say overall I’m 10’s of thousands out of pocket as a result.
For one thing, having played roulette in real casinos in Australia and N America I feel that sequences that come up regularly on FOBT do not do so as often on real tables. I’ve never seen the same number come up 3 times in a row in a casino but have many times on FOBT for example. Maybe its just because I've spent more time on FOBT's I dont know.
My personal conspiracy theory is that the companies that designed and run these machines must have consulted psychologists and other experts in human behaviour and model the machines response to suit.
I suppose the only solution is for regular players on fobt and real casinos to record results and have the data analysed by a statistician.
But whether anything underhand is going on or not it’s a mugs game for sure. If you must bet then do it on sporting events where theres some level of skill involved.
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Cardinal Sin
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4166
- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 pm
Welcome to the board!
We're (well I am anyway) currently debating this again here ...
http://www.fruitchat.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6901
I appreciate your input. I'm a firm believer that they are NOT fixed. However, any random number generator can never be truly random. Therefore, I'm not denying that it is possible to spot patterns of numbers emerging. However, this doesn't amount to actual cheating.
We're (well I am anyway) currently debating this again here ...
http://www.fruitchat.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6901
I appreciate your input. I'm a firm believer that they are NOT fixed. However, any random number generator can never be truly random. Therefore, I'm not denying that it is possible to spot patterns of numbers emerging. However, this doesn't amount to actual cheating.
Not random??
Today, as a little experiment I tossed a coin 64 times (no reason why 64 just got fed up!) - the sequence was:
httththhtththhhthththhtthttthththhttthttththhththttthtthhhthhthht
31 Heads, 33 Tails - longest same toss sequence 3.
I then went down to Ladbrokes with £50 and played the FOBT. When I used to play these regularly I used to always put the 1st bet on Red. Previously on this machine there were 1 black and I think 14 reds. So not very confidently I put a fiver on red. It came up black. So I switched to black and stayed there - the next 6 were red. Another black then 2 more reds by which time my 50 had gone.
So out of I think 24 plays there were 3 blacks and 21 reds.
Random?? OK so random number generators aren’t perfect but come on. In my view its human nature to bet for change – you think red (or black,even odd etc) just cant keep on arriving. I believe the machine running the number generator knows this and acts accordingly to increase your losses to greater than you would expect.
Or am I just going mad? Can I resist the urge to keep tossing a coin looking for a sequence of 14 heads! Maybe I’ll start believing in alien abduction soon too :-)
httththhtththhhthththhtthttthththhttthttththhththttthtthhhthhthht
31 Heads, 33 Tails - longest same toss sequence 3.
I then went down to Ladbrokes with £50 and played the FOBT. When I used to play these regularly I used to always put the 1st bet on Red. Previously on this machine there were 1 black and I think 14 reds. So not very confidently I put a fiver on red. It came up black. So I switched to black and stayed there - the next 6 were red. Another black then 2 more reds by which time my 50 had gone.
So out of I think 24 plays there were 3 blacks and 21 reds.
Random?? OK so random number generators aren’t perfect but come on. In my view its human nature to bet for change – you think red (or black,even odd etc) just cant keep on arriving. I believe the machine running the number generator knows this and acts accordingly to increase your losses to greater than you would expect.
Or am I just going mad? Can I resist the urge to keep tossing a coin looking for a sequence of 14 heads! Maybe I’ll start believing in alien abduction soon too :-)
Oh dear - just opened an online betting account and lost £200 on Blackjack and Roulette. Was 35 in profit at one point but then had this killer run: 21,19,31,21,20,36,21,34,23,36,25,13,15,28
That’s 11 highs in a row.
Tossed the coin 64 times again and got:
h h t h t h h t h t t t t h t t h t t h h h t h h h t t h t h t t t t h t t h t t h t h t h h t t h h h h h t t h h t h t t t t: 30 heads, 34 tails – longest run this time 5.
Not any proof I know – but enough evidence for me to know I’m an idiot for playing these things.
Also isn’t blackjack a killer?? Didn’t keep records but the banker seemed more often than not to hold high value cards. Kicked me right in the teeth a few times by getting 21 when I had 20 and once even getting pontoon when I had 21!!!!
Life is too short to give these crooks your hard earned cash!
That’s 11 highs in a row.
Tossed the coin 64 times again and got:
h h t h t h h t h t t t t h t t h t t h h h t h h h t t h t h t t t t h t t h t t h t h t h h t t h h h h h t t h h t h t t t t: 30 heads, 34 tails – longest run this time 5.
Not any proof I know – but enough evidence for me to know I’m an idiot for playing these things.
Also isn’t blackjack a killer?? Didn’t keep records but the banker seemed more often than not to hold high value cards. Kicked me right in the teeth a few times by getting 21 when I had 20 and once even getting pontoon when I had 21!!!!
Life is too short to give these crooks your hard earned cash!
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stuart4010
- Senior Member
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:48 pm
Why choose to toss the coin 64 times? I found a program on the internet from a US university website, have a look at some results from it:
No. of flips: 100
Heads: 54
Tails: 46
Longest Run of Heads: 7
Longest Run of Tails: 5
No. of flips: 500
Heads: 241
Tails: 259
Longest Run of Heads: 10
Longest Run of Tails: 9
No. of filps: 1000
Heads: 480
Tails: 520
Longest Run of Heads: 8
Longest Run of Tails: 11
No. of flips: 2000
Heads: 971
Tails: 1029
Longest Run of Heads: 12
Longest Run of Tails: 11
No. of flips: 5000
Heads: 2489
Tails: 2511
Longest Run of Heads: 14
Longest Run of Tails: 12
Of course I should really average these out over a number of tries to eliminate some error, but i'm just trying to illustrate the potential for long consectutive coin flips.
No. of flips: 100
Heads: 54
Tails: 46
Longest Run of Heads: 7
Longest Run of Tails: 5
No. of flips: 500
Heads: 241
Tails: 259
Longest Run of Heads: 10
Longest Run of Tails: 9
No. of filps: 1000
Heads: 480
Tails: 520
Longest Run of Heads: 8
Longest Run of Tails: 11
No. of flips: 2000
Heads: 971
Tails: 1029
Longest Run of Heads: 12
Longest Run of Tails: 11
No. of flips: 5000
Heads: 2489
Tails: 2511
Longest Run of Heads: 14
Longest Run of Tails: 12
Of course I should really average these out over a number of tries to eliminate some error, but i'm just trying to illustrate the potential for long consectutive coin flips.
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onlythebrave
- Junior Member
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 10:03 pm
Hi guys im new here, i have sat and read this topic with intrest for
the past wee while. Oh it brings back some memories i tell you.
I also used to be a sucker for those dreaded machines.
So many views, well here`s mine for what its worth.
There is no way of ever knowing if these fobt`s are rigged, but as orinoko
said, ive seen that so many times. I used to pile on my chips at certain
areas of the wheel ie the zero area no`s 12, 35, 03, 26, 0, 32, 15, 19.
Or areas that hadnt shown for a good number of spins. Another 10 or so spins down the line and still that area was being missed out, but i guarantee, you change your bet and out those numbers would appear.
This happened so so often to convince me that those machines were far from fair.
What ive always wondered is, someone must know!! The people who design the software etc. Someone out there knows.
Anyway i never play them now, i prefer the land based casinos for a fairer
chance.
the past wee while. Oh it brings back some memories i tell you.
I also used to be a sucker for those dreaded machines.
So many views, well here`s mine for what its worth.
There is no way of ever knowing if these fobt`s are rigged, but as orinoko
said, ive seen that so many times. I used to pile on my chips at certain
areas of the wheel ie the zero area no`s 12, 35, 03, 26, 0, 32, 15, 19.
Or areas that hadnt shown for a good number of spins. Another 10 or so spins down the line and still that area was being missed out, but i guarantee, you change your bet and out those numbers would appear.
This happened so so often to convince me that those machines were far from fair.
What ive always wondered is, someone must know!! The people who design the software etc. Someone out there knows.
Anyway i never play them now, i prefer the land based casinos for a fairer
chance.