Fruit Machine Chat

Ok, as I explained in my introductory post, I play the DOND versions in pubs, and USED to play s16's in arcades.
I have played s16 solid every weekend since their introduction 2 years ago. I am about £20k down for the 2 years, I know that sounds dramatic, but thats over 90 weekends of entertainment on Saturdays and Sundays before I meet my pals. This has solely come from earnings, I have no debts and it has been an affordable (although expensive) pastime.
I have gone from losing £1900 in one 6 hour Sunday session, to making 1400 in 4 hours on a Saturday.
On average I have lost about 12-13 per hour of playing if you do the math.
Unless you have very deep pockets, or have become addicted and borrowed big sums to finance it, it is unlikely you could match my experience.
To be honest, I found that once I played them, the whole desire to play 15/25's just evaporated; the thrill of a force for 75 just didn't come close to a silver pot say for 187.45!
There are 3 kinds of programs on them - the first, the one most are familiar with - the 'feature' types with pots/trails/boxes like Riches, Cashino and all their clones like Monty Python then there's the Pink Panther, Knights and Castles, Tornado and random spinner.
These all tend to give a run on £2 a spin for 800-1k, when in the mood, and yes they have moods these 'random' machines! These machines gameplay offer lots and regular 50p-£1+£1.50 wins to keep you going.

Type 2 are the bar-x types, electrocoins 20 liner, similar by project. These seldom paid £500's, and mainly worked out giving 20-40 spins with NO win followed by a few mid-range ones over a few credits like £20 then £82 then £35 say, to give a run of 100-200, then either take it all back quite quickly and plus a few more pounds, then repeating the pattern OR not quite taking it all back then repeating the pattern so you gradually built up to 300 ish (which is when usually the jackpot would follow IF it was going to come out, otherwise once at 300ish the machines would die quickly.)

The last and third type are in between, like slotto and it's clones. They are mainly reel machine with the occasional 'feature' which is on the reels only, like reel kins and stupid cowboys. The difference here is the noticeable dead period before a jackpot, and if it was going to 'double' jackpot then good play before the second.

Rainbow riches eg. would often pay Gold and if it was between 410-450 it would then give it again when on 253.xx, ie very soon after. I saw this pattern over and over, same as slotto double jackpot pattern. IF ANYONE says these machines are truly random pertaining to 94%, hundreds of hours of my time and cash says 'balls'! The RNG MUST sometimes pick 'blocks' of numbers to do these patterns, NOT single numbers which are generated as and when you press the button. All this talk of 'a different spin if you press the button 0.6 secs later etc..' is balls too! I used to see 'signs' of big payouts, and whether I put them on autoplay, went for a piss for 20 mins or played manually, the 'signed' win would occur. Every time.

NOW THE NEW £1 STAKE/92%
I tried this twice. It only took me 2 visits to stop playing them. That was 3 weeks ago. Haven't played ANY machine since. I was shocked by the new resets of £1. I will tell you why.

The riches etc. type 1 now play fast spin. The features are fast too. The rainbows seldom come up, when they do 50 bronze, 100 if very lucky. The small wins are only 50% as frequent, stretches with NO win longer. The pattern is suck for 150+ then a short spell of say a 60 quid leprachaun trail followed by a 60 quid 4 wishing wells etc. THIS PATTERN IS SIMILAR TO THE PATTERN OF TYPE 2, THE BAR-X TYPE GAMES ON £2 SPIN AS ABOVE. I.E. CRAP! You could play these all weekend, and no jackpot will show.

The type 2, bar-x types on £1 spin play exactly the same, except the dead periods are twice as long. Win blocks are similar, but with faster spins your money goes quicker. Best avoided first time round, now deadly. Avoid.

Type 3, slotto types. No jackpots around, let alone sequence of 2. Quicker spins, fewer and poorer features. Small wins infrequent. Terrible.

THESE section 16's on £1/92% are SHOCKING! I immediately noticed the negative play, the feeling that I could play fro the rest of the week and still not see a £500+ bank, in any way gained.
Before I could get greater returns by playing on £2 at weekends, after the grannies and munters had played on 50p/£1 all week. A long period on 90/92% followed by me playing 94% always seemed to create good dividends. Now EVERY player is the same, same stake, same percentage, same shit gameplay.

I lost more in a shorter period of time when I tried the new £1 stakes than I ever did on £2 play. I was so shocked the first time, I went back a second time to see if I'd just been merely unlucky. Still the same. I walked out, still several hundred of 'playing' notes in my wallet, thouroughly disillusioned. I can't go back to shitty £25 play, or lo-techs (yeuch!)
Yet I also know that the section 16 experience is over. Finished. 3 weeks, the notes still sit in my wallet, getting spent on more mundane things like gas and food etc. I thought that after 2 years of doing the buzz almost every weekend, that I'd find it hard to change the pattern of activity in my spare time. I haven't. I suppose it's like smoking as a habit, enjoying it, and one day you pick up a contaminated fag, and it almost kills you. The shock simply, in one stroke, puts you off fags forever.

OTHER PLAYERS - PLEASE PLEASE use my experience and expenditure to learn NOT play this trash. YOU WON'T GAIN. IGNORE THEM. THEY ARE FINISHED!
If you DO act silly and put a couple of quid in, unless you hit the small infrequent 'random run ha-ha' you WILL lose. Walk away. Leave them. THEY'RE OVER! The future is £35 jackpots then death for the scene.
Bloop! over. Bloop OVER.

Please do.
Thankyou.

NOW THE NEW £1 STAKE/92%
I tried this twice. It only took me 2 visits to stop playing them. That was 3 weeks ago. Haven't played ANY machine since. I was shocked by the new resets of £1. I will tell you why.

Ditto!

I used to love playing the likes of elvis, holy grail and RR, i could quite happily sit there for a few hours and not be bored, and i also agree with the streaks, numerous times on elvis for instance i'd get 4 caddy's in for £10 several times followed by all 5 for the JP, it happened too many times to be random!

I've played RS, Elvis and RR so far on B3 and they're abismal, i have played around £300 through them in total and i've had no more than 3/4 features and no wins about £20, just pathetic!!

Streakypoos wrote:Please do.

I now have!
U replied just after I typed the first bit, and before I edited to add the second bit!

I played a Rainbow Riches today and had to stop for 3 reasons:

1. I was sick of the dull gameplay
2. I needed a wee
3. I was falling asleep

It was not fun - and in a way, I'm glad about that because I can add it to my 'avoid' list more easily.

these new b3's are terrible, they hardly ever give boards, and every arcade/services I've been into, have stated that they have paid at the most 2 jp's (out of all 4 machines this is) from the last 3 weeks they have been there - in most cases it is no jp's!

the only thing they do give on the crest ones now is pots, which are generally £50-125 or £200, so nothing special there either...

certainly won't be putting any of my money through these things!

cashino wrote: These all tend to give a run on £2 a spin for 800-1k, when in the mood, and yes they have moods these 'random' machines! These machines gameplay offer lots and regular 50p-£1+£1.50 wins to keep you going.

hate to dissagree with you but these machines guaranteed do not have any kind of mood to them. the way that they generate each number/win is the closest to randomness that you can have without having somekind of quantom supercomputer hookied up to every machine. i'd love to say that this is not true (because we all must feel the same way, that S16 and now the new gen random machines seem to be 'predictable') but unfortunatly i know for a fact it is.
anyone interested in the more technical/geeky side of these work, feel free to pm
kai

Kai.

Can you tell me what type of RNG's are in S16 fruit machines please? I would suggest that to make the percentages that Pseudo RNG's are used using seeds. If numbers are based only on deterministic calculations then surely the results are inherently predictable ? Fruit machines hardly ever seem to get the correct testing done before release so who knows how well the algorithms work in each case. There is no way that the original Barcrest Elvis machines were random, and judging by comments from others on machines such as Rainbow Riches they would also appear to be "non random". Just my thoughts.

THey were not random.

The BFG s16s used to ALWAYS pay 2 large (at least £5) wins in succession, the most dramatic being back-to-back jps, one credit after the other.

However now, really can't see myself wanting to play them anymore, especially now the % is lower. All rigged to buggery anyway, I dont like the idea of some of the ones in the bookies where u can literally just double/quits your win and walk with nothing everytime!

One thing I'd like to mention. Have all these machines been 'reset' in terms of payout %? Or was it just adjusted? Because say they'd been paying out at 97% or whatever it is, now its down to 90/92%, surely its got some catching up to do from its previous life?

well good luck overcoming the addiction. I have had limited experience of the £1 s16 but they certainly play differently I'll give you that. Random spinnner hardly EVER gives wins of any sort seeing as its only 5 lines now with the red/black double up, and those with the 'supergamble' to get around the £2 law are even more shocking. By pure fluke I nailed 5cadds off very little on elvis, didnt even have another spin and havent touched them since. S16s really are a MUGS game.

Scurlogue's Revenge wrote:Can you tell me what type of RNG's are in S16 fruit machines please?

I came to have in my possession a RNG from a slotto about a year back. It's an external cigarette pack size black box that was meant to be displayed outside the cabinet by law, but of course, you had problems of people stealing them. Anyways, being the technically curious chap that I am, I opened the box and made a study of the components. It looks like a simple RNG based on the photoelectric effect, which is of course, scientifically held to be truly random, and no seed is required.

I would suggest that to make the percentages that Pseudo RNG's are used using seeds. If numbers are based only on deterministic calculations then surely the results are inherently predictable

I would suggest that you are looking at the problem of creating a percentage payout in the wrong manner

With our RNG, we can create an arbitrary random number range. Say for example, we have designed our RNG to emit numbers in the range of 1-100. How does the machine create it's percentages ?

When we built our machine, we knew what range our RNG was going to emit. A simplistic 50% payout would work if the machines program had a paytable that instructed the software to pay out the stake value only when numbers 1-50 were given.

As you can see, percentage payout is completely seperate from the operation of the RNG. All that needs to be done is range weighting on our random number space.

Sorry kai, but no voice speaks louder than the voice of experience, and these machines DO give repetetive sequences you wouldn't expect with true randomness, whether seeded or not. No amount of pseudo-intellectual theorizing detracts from the FACT that as well as the example I gave concerning the riches gold pots, another is the 3 leprachauns coming in on 3 consecutive spins, always giving for the total 3 boards £80, i.e. 30,25,25 or 20,15,45 but ALWAYS £80.
I have like many players have a subconscious register of events which occur on machines we play, whereby for no apparent reason the feeling comes of the big win or A win we've seen before. This is basically our brains digesting what we're watching and and teling us what's coming, even though we are not specifically concentrating on it, but the brain is.
There is a definite positive correlation of repetetive events here, as some others have already confirmed.
This beats theory out of the water.

I fully agree there are 'oddities' on all the claimed 'RANDOM' games. I have said before on this forum that it is not the bad 'patches' that lead me to think this but in fact the good patches. 'streaks' of £10+ wins/features within very few spins are noticably odd when you know just how uncommon even ONE £10+ spin is. If I could have the percentage likliness of each certain win, it would be easy for us to start drawing up some probablities of getting these streaks on an RNG. It seems the only way the two theories can co-exist is if the RNG is not consulted on EVERY spin, rather say, every TEN spins. Thus the programmers could make SOME ten spin combination give big 'streaks' and others £0-£2 etc; they WOULD then be random on the whole.

There is always conjecture here, but NO-ONE has come up with any conclusive proof about the RNG aspect of these machines.
To meet say 90% payout, you could in fact get 18x£1 wins from each 20 spins, or 2x£9 combos every 20 spins, or nothing for 99 spins and a£90 win on the hundredth. Obviously we all know that the %age is over a very long cycle, but in my experience you can with enough funds, force the 500/big streak by playing continuously.
I think the RNG 'checks in' every so-often with the current %age the machine is playing to, and adjusts accordingly with a streak of numbers corresponding to larger wins/jackpots.
To see this in effect, if u play the project/electrocoin s16's with only bars/x's on them, you ALWAYS get long dead periods, followed by periods of enhanced payouts (just like the £25 lo-techs electrocoins!!!) I guarantee you that after the usual 60 spins with only a few quids worth of x's, that when you do hit the bigger combo, say £53 of bars/x's in one spin, that you'll get another similar bigger win in the next 2-5 spins. EVERY time.
NO theorizing, no fancy mathematical/computing terminology, this HAPPENS!

[quote="theoak"] It seems the only way the two theories can co-exist is if the RNG is not consulted on EVERY spin, rather say, every TEN spins. Thus the programmers could make SOME ten spin combination give big 'streaks' and others £0-£2 etc]

When the RNG is removed from the machine, it does indeed let you have about 10 spins before it complains. This would suggest that it gets a block of random numbers in every request.