New Beginning
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Noels Beard
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redlinesman
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redlinesman
- Senior Member
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Doesn't matter what their motives are Noel, they have a staggeringly obvious use to the world. That argument could be levelled against anyone who gets paid for doing something and has no substance.
The Chief has told his son the 3 golden rules of a job.
Be of use to the world
Enjoy and love what you do
Be able to support yourself
Obviously many people will rate these factors in different order, some may be swayed by wealth accumulation but I reckon there's a significant number of people who would not be.
The Chief has told his son the 3 golden rules of a job.
Be of use to the world
Enjoy and love what you do
Be able to support yourself
Obviously many people will rate these factors in different order, some may be swayed by wealth accumulation but I reckon there's a significant number of people who would not be.
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Noels Beard
That's a very blinkered view linesman. It matters to me what people's motives are. I value the useless man who thinks of others over the selfish man that provides a service.
If I had sufficient time for an imaginary friend his golden rules would surely be:
A man can be more or less than a title or position: trust your instincts.
Do not be afraid to be different, there is no shame in standing out from the crowd.
Look at the bigger picture before making decisions, the world is not cast in black and white. Find your own set of values, unique to you, and try to understand the world through them.
If I had sufficient time for an imaginary friend his golden rules would surely be:
A man can be more or less than a title or position: trust your instincts.
Do not be afraid to be different, there is no shame in standing out from the crowd.
Look at the bigger picture before making decisions, the world is not cast in black and white. Find your own set of values, unique to you, and try to understand the world through them.
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Noels Beard
I guess what I'm saying is don't judge the job, judge the person. Think of the famous scientists Haber and Nobel. Both heralded and respected during their time. Their legacy has been one of great harm. Nobel tried to offset the foreseeable harm he had caused by the continued awarding of the Nobel prize. However, it is difficult to quantify whether either of these men have contributed positively or negatively to the world.
I disagree with your summation of a legacy of great harm, Noels Beard.
The main contribution of Alfred Nobel (dynamite) has great use in civilian applications, as does Haber's contribution (ammonia synthesis). For those of you who don't know, ammonia is vital for large scale crop production (as well as being important in some families of explosives).
Both men contributed knowledge to the world that could be used for positive or negative purposes. (On a side note, Haber can be considered a bad man for his work in chemical weapons, which was an engineering issue rather than an inventive one).
The bad things that happen in this world is not the fault of technology, nor is it the fault of the scientists that discover the technology. The blame lies squarely at the feet of the people who elect governments and leaders with agendas of hatred, greed and intolerance.
If an aggressor decides to go to war with another state, then many people die. The end result is still the same, whether it is death by explosives or death by pointy stick. To illustrate this point, WW2 has an estimated 78,000,000 casualties. In the 13th Century, the Mongol conquests death toll is estimated at 60,000,000. Arguably the Mongol conquests had more of an impact due to the smaller world population in the 13th Century (A long time before explosives).
We would all still be living in caves, shivering and going blind due to no light if we didn't embrace inventions such as fire and electricity, which have undoubtedly played their parts in many millions of deaths, both directly and indirectly.
The main contribution of Alfred Nobel (dynamite) has great use in civilian applications, as does Haber's contribution (ammonia synthesis). For those of you who don't know, ammonia is vital for large scale crop production (as well as being important in some families of explosives).
Both men contributed knowledge to the world that could be used for positive or negative purposes. (On a side note, Haber can be considered a bad man for his work in chemical weapons, which was an engineering issue rather than an inventive one).
The bad things that happen in this world is not the fault of technology, nor is it the fault of the scientists that discover the technology. The blame lies squarely at the feet of the people who elect governments and leaders with agendas of hatred, greed and intolerance.
If an aggressor decides to go to war with another state, then many people die. The end result is still the same, whether it is death by explosives or death by pointy stick. To illustrate this point, WW2 has an estimated 78,000,000 casualties. In the 13th Century, the Mongol conquests death toll is estimated at 60,000,000. Arguably the Mongol conquests had more of an impact due to the smaller world population in the 13th Century (A long time before explosives).
We would all still be living in caves, shivering and going blind due to no light if we didn't embrace inventions such as fire and electricity, which have undoubtedly played their parts in many millions of deaths, both directly and indirectly.
"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
Before sources of light were invented, humans slept earlier and awoke with the rising of the sun, since trying to see in the dark was soon discovered to be hazardous and a waste of time.bubbles wrote:did we go blind due to no light at some point then?!
Humans also found out that being constructive instead of making snide comments was a better way forward.
"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
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Noels Beard
I agree entirely. Lets reference this back to the point I was originally addressing. This is why I believe that a mans motives tell you a lot more about them than their accomplishments. We could say of Haber or Nobel that they were good or bad men, based upon their legacy. But neither of us knew them so these assumptions are fairly worthless, in terms of what I (personally) think qualifies or distinguishes a life as worthwhile. As a side note, I seem to remember Nobel's decision to create the Nobel prize rose solely out of consideration for his own legacy: which comes across as pretty self-indulgent.blackmogu wrote: The bad things that happen in this world is not the fault of technology, nor is it the fault of the scientists that discover the technology. The blame lies squarely at the feet of the people who elect governments and leaders with agendas of hatred, greed and intolerance.
So when someone tells me they're a brain surgeon, and save many people lives. Or tells me they play machines, and seem to contribute very little to society: I try not to read too much into it. A bicycle is very useful if I want to travel a medium distance, but I don't sit their awkwardly with it - offering it light aperitifs. It's function alone does not warrant respect; and for me the same should hold true of anyone I should meet. You can do good, but do you 'mean' good. These comments are more fodder for Sie Linesman than yourself, blackmogu.
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redlinesman
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Very interesting thread
Noels - my original point was the act of playing fruit machines for profit has no role or purpose for society as a whole. A successful Doctor or Surgeon may pursue a medical career in part because it is well paid but the result of this is a person who is generally of immense use to the world. People’s motives will vary right across the scale; some will be more financially orientated whilst some people may want a job that they enjoy. Others will have as what they see as a vocation and other factors may not be so important but generally there are so many different factors that will influence people. This is simply human nature and I think the idealist mind-set you subscribe to is probably the result of being involved in gambling, that is indeed if you are. You are trying to justify what you do by attempting to put it on a similar playing field with any other job where the sole motive is not selfless and for the good of others. I believe you have some intellect but I suspect your gambling mind-set is actually limiting your thinking. Maybe broadening your horizons by gaining new experiences and taking up new activities may help in this respect. I speak from experience as for a few years I probably got embroiled in fruit playing too much and you can quickly forget there is a big wide world outside of it.
JG - I think you, Blackmogu and Noels should start a Fruitchat Debating Society but I'm staying out of it! On your point though, I agree with it wholeheartedly.
Noels - my original point was the act of playing fruit machines for profit has no role or purpose for society as a whole. A successful Doctor or Surgeon may pursue a medical career in part because it is well paid but the result of this is a person who is generally of immense use to the world. People’s motives will vary right across the scale; some will be more financially orientated whilst some people may want a job that they enjoy. Others will have as what they see as a vocation and other factors may not be so important but generally there are so many different factors that will influence people. This is simply human nature and I think the idealist mind-set you subscribe to is probably the result of being involved in gambling, that is indeed if you are. You are trying to justify what you do by attempting to put it on a similar playing field with any other job where the sole motive is not selfless and for the good of others. I believe you have some intellect but I suspect your gambling mind-set is actually limiting your thinking. Maybe broadening your horizons by gaining new experiences and taking up new activities may help in this respect. I speak from experience as for a few years I probably got embroiled in fruit playing too much and you can quickly forget there is a big wide world outside of it.
JG - I think you, Blackmogu and Noels should start a Fruitchat Debating Society but I'm staying out of it! On your point though, I agree with it wholeheartedly.
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Noels Beard
Ironically, it would seem to me that it is you that possess the idealist mind-set, whereby society is a well orchestrated machine with each member fulfilling its individual role. A few years ago, I may have yielded to your arguments: they are persuasive. However, raw experience, and disappointing exchanges with individuals who on paper promise so much, has altered my stance. It strikes me that you view the world through rose tinted spectacles, and such high expectations are likely to disappoint. Maybe you were not breastfed as a child; maybe you were breastfed too much; or maybe the Chief still routinely wet nurses you whilst keeping a cautious eye. Obviously I'm not qualified to make these Freudian observations, but if I were I would prescribe a good old-fashioned dose of scientific empiricism. The requirements of a society are dependant upon a number of factors, many anthropological, and many economic. Before fruit machines, we didn't need fruit machine players. Before trains, we didn't need train drivers. I think you can see where this is going. To further complicate the social tapestry, technology and capitalism have removed many of the 'worthwhile' jobs from our reach. We don't need hunters anymore, we farm. In a few years time we may not even be farming. As we strive for a utopia, the possibility of fulfilling your mandate of a worthwhile contribution becomes smaller and smaller.
In truth, I'm aware that in real-world terms a doctor is more useful than a fruit machine player. But there are many ways in which you can tick your social obligation box. If you played fruits 6 days a week and on the 7th you organised football games for kids, or worked in a soup kitchen, you may be doing far more good than many would give you credit for. You're too quick to judge, and too quick to praise where it may not be due.
In truth, I'm aware that in real-world terms a doctor is more useful than a fruit machine player. But there are many ways in which you can tick your social obligation box. If you played fruits 6 days a week and on the 7th you organised football games for kids, or worked in a soup kitchen, you may be doing far more good than many would give you credit for. You're too quick to judge, and too quick to praise where it may not be due.
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Ruler of The World
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This always happens on every thread... it turns into something totally irrelevant to the subject! However, now that we have come this far, here's what I think... Fruit machine players are wastes of space in terms of what their work does towards society. What a player does beyond 'working hours' could well be good and benefit society in some small ways I suppose or make them worse - it depends on the person. For example, if you have some loudmouth twat who earns from fruits and this boosts his already over-sized ego, it is likely to cause him to be an even bigger menace to society than he already is. These people suddenly become even more defensive of the places they are 'hitting' and become a sort of megalomaniac who will pick on others in various ways such as threatening them, trying to get them barred, etc. Then, in his fury, his general demeanour gets worse, he becomes an even bigger prick and so on...
So to summarise, the 'work' done is not helping society in any way, it is what happens beyond work to that person due to the consequences of the level of success they are having in that work that can affect their standing in life and with others. Obviously if their work causes them to get into situations where police are needed and crimes are committed then that's different but as long as they are sticking to peacefully 'working' they are not affecting the general public whilst doing so.
I hope that made sense.
So to summarise, the 'work' done is not helping society in any way, it is what happens beyond work to that person due to the consequences of the level of success they are having in that work that can affect their standing in life and with others. Obviously if their work causes them to get into situations where police are needed and crimes are committed then that's different but as long as they are sticking to peacefully 'working' they are not affecting the general public whilst doing so.
I hope that made sense.
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Roll_With_It_Russ
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redlinesman
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Ruler of the World - you are correct, it is such a simple and basic point.
Noels - you are missing the point totally. I'm talking about a profession or a job and not individuals. Your arguments are reminiscent of the actions of the co-pilot on Air France flight 447.
Roll With it Russ - that's a bit of a cop out to be honest because it has no substance. The money we win would simply go somewhere else whether it would be a machine company's taxable profits or a pub customer’s pocket. In any case, we don't pay income tax or national insurance and I've heard of stories about fruit machine players claiming job seekers allowance and housing benefit.
Noels - you are missing the point totally. I'm talking about a profession or a job and not individuals. Your arguments are reminiscent of the actions of the co-pilot on Air France flight 447.
Roll With it Russ - that's a bit of a cop out to be honest because it has no substance. The money we win would simply go somewhere else whether it would be a machine company's taxable profits or a pub customer’s pocket. In any case, we don't pay income tax or national insurance and I've heard of stories about fruit machine players claiming job seekers allowance and housing benefit.