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View Full Version : FOBT roulette is rigged (again)



JG
26-05-2010, 11:45 PM
No smoke without fire.

This is a theory/truth that has been bandied about a bit. I had forgotten about it, until it was mentioned in the car on the way down to London by Superman's mate.

This is how it goes.

FOBT roulette does not pay to true odds 97.2%, more like 88% or similar. The way the result is worked out IS random. Say you bet red, the machine picks a number from 0-39. 0-36 are displayed as usual, but if 37,38 or 39 are picked than a losing spin is generated.

I'm not saying this is true or not, but I know we are due A GOOD BLOOMIN' ARGUMENT ABOUT HOW BLOOMIN' RIGGED SOMETHING MAY OR MAY NOT BE.....

Why would they do it? Greed and the fact that minimum bet 1 spin, needs to take minimum 12p, not 2.8p per spin.

I've seen the wording 'roulette pays out at 97.2%' which could be a clever way of avoiding saying that THIS roulette pays out at 88% ie it's just a general statement, designed to mislead you into assuming you'll get 97.2%


Let the games commence!

Spyder
27-05-2010, 08:40 PM
i won quite a bit yesterday off of a 'cheeky 20'

i love FOBT's

griff50
27-05-2010, 10:24 PM
fobt's are not rigged in my opinion. It is simply the game of roulette which always favours the house. It's very easy to blame something when you lose, but you are simply playing against fixed odds everytime you play, hence the name: fixed odd betting terminal. You cannot force them like a fruit machine, the problem is that many people who used to play machines have graduated onto fobt's and try to play them the same way, only against areas of the wheel, i.e. shit I've not had tier for 15 spins it must come in etc.

It's a random number generator, 3 is closer to 4 and 2 than 26 and 35 for example.

Another thing I must add. The history of numbers is not the true sequencial history. As a random number is picked every one second, and it takes 3 to 5 deconds to spin and then pay your winnings (mayby) you never see the full sequence. I love it when people come up to me and tell me that since 3 has just come out then either 36 or 9 is going to come out. lol

Winning on Fobt's is just dependent on WHEN you hit the spin button. Simple. Nothing more.
]

Spyder
27-05-2010, 10:36 PM
I love it when people come up to me and tell me that since 3 has just come out then either 36 or 9 is going to come out.

naa, after 3, its definitely gunna hit 25 - 30,

2 down for the melons
28-05-2010, 12:12 AM
They are vile!, Why anyone plays them is beyond me..iv'e had my lesson well and truly learnt on those pieces of filth..

U can't win on roulette anyway, let alone the bookies fobt shit...

:x :x :x

keno
28-05-2010, 08:32 AM
Bad days are always going to outweigh your good on these :(

harry2
28-05-2010, 08:42 AM
Joseph Hobson Jagger (1830 1892) was a British engineer, widely known as The Man Who Broke the Bank at Monte Carlo, though he is not the only person to have done so. His name is sometimes reported as Jaggers, but the International Genealogical Index indicates that Jagger is more likely. He is also said to be a distant cousin of Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones.[1]

Jagger was born in September 1829 in the village of Shelf near Halifax, Yorkshire. Jagger gained his practical experience of mechanics working in Yorkshire's cotton manufacturing industry. He extended his experience to the behaviour of a roulette wheel, speculating that its outcomes were not purely random sequences but that mechanical imbalances might result in biases toward particular outcomes.

In 1873, Jagger hired six clerks to clandestinely record the outcomes of the six roulette wheels at the Beaux-Arts Casino at Monte Carlo, Monaco. He discovered that one of the six wheels showed a clear bias, in that nine of the numbers (7, 8, 9, 17, 18, 19, 22, 28 and 29) occurred more frequently than the others. He therefore placed his first bets on 7 July 1875 and quickly won a considerable amount of money, 14,000 (equivalent to around 50 times that amount in 2005, or 700,000, adjusted for inflation). Over the next three days, Jagger amassed 60,000 in earnings with other gamblers in tow emulating his bets. In response the casino rearranged the wheels, which threw Jagger into confusion. After a losing streak, Jagger finally recalled that a scratch he noted on the biased wheel wasn't present. Looking for this telltale mark, Jagger was able to locate his preferred wheel and resumed winning. Counterattacking again, the casino moved the frets, metal dividers between numbers, around daily. Over the next two days Jagger lost and gave up, but he took his remaining earnings, two million francs, then about 65,000 (around 3,250,000 in 2005), and left Monte Carlo never to return.

Jagger resigned from his job at the mill and invested his money in property. He is buried at Bethel Chapel, Halifax Road, Shelf.

In 1892, Fred Gilbert wrote a popular song, The Man Who Broke the Bank at Monte Carlo, that is mistakenly attributed to Jagger's exploits. Instead, the song is a celebration of Charles Wells, another Englishman, who in 1891 won handsomely in Monte Carlo. The song was popularised by the music hall star, Charles Coburn.

An episode of the television show CSI was based on Jagger's motives in Monte Carlo, albeit retold with a Las Vegas theme.

ma71lda
28-05-2010, 06:40 PM
William Hill make over 1000 per minute on FOBT's. Fact.

I love the way we know what number is going to come out 20 seconds before the punter does. Apparantly the law says the ball has to piss about for the 20 seconds before landing on said number. Not very 'random' if we know you are loser (or a winner) before you do. :lol:

Spyder
28-05-2010, 09:14 PM
William Hill make over 1000 per minute on FOBT's. Fact.

I love the way we know what number is going to come out 20 seconds before the punter does. Apparantly the law says the ball has to piss about for the 20 seconds before landing on said number. Not very 'random' if we know you are loser (or a winner) before you do. :lol:

1000 a minute? lol its probably more like 100,000 a minute..

the original roulette "fobt" terminals had a 100 limit PER SPOT with a 500 limit on red/black/1:1 's and a total maximum win of 10,000 per spin

the terminals also had "speed" function, which missed the spin.. and just gave a number..

when it was like this, i put a 20 note in once, and managed to rebet/spin/rebet/spin 20 individual bets of 1 within about 90 seconds..

the way they work was changed quite quickly

you can work out the number instantly from where the wheel starts.. which is a bit fucking pointless and actuially quite annoying (for me anyway)

the part of casino roulette i like is putting the bets on and watching the wheel spin.. even if you only bet a couple of quid a spin, it gives you a buzz every time as you cant tell where its gunna land..

i LOVE playing roulette in the casino... but when i go in i have strict limits.. so i never get carried away..

the fobt roulette is something i play when i have a bit of spare money.. like wednesday..

i had about 100 i wasnt planning on doing anything with.. went in ladbrookes with it and put 20 in the machine.. won 6 or 7 spins in a row and walked out 300 richer, wandering around town and went in another bookies, 20 in, a few winning spins, and walked out 400 richer..

i just feel sorry for the 125,000 people around the country who probably all lost 100's while i won on those 2 machines ...


and its not random.

JG
28-05-2010, 10:23 PM
What makes you think they are not random Spyder?

harry2
28-05-2010, 11:02 PM
Deleted

griff50
29-05-2010, 12:03 AM
zero comes after 2. I've been told by a reliable source wearing soiled jeans and an anorack. lol

Spyder
29-05-2010, 12:27 AM
What makes you think they are not random Spyder?

cause we've talked about it many times on here

they might pick a number randomly, but im 100% sure theres some kind of payout reflex, stopping large wins or strings of wins coming in...

even when i win on them, its hard to believe it randomly hit numbers i bet on... then another time "randomly" hitting all the ones i havent bet on... (i dont use set numbers i just press all over usually, drawing patterns etc)

especially as a few times ive bet on all the numbers apart from 1 at once and its hit the one i didnt go on... reverse random!!! lol

ming
29-05-2010, 09:13 AM
i say that if you think they have played unfairly then you should break them and then hopefully 100's of terminals will be getting broke everyday losing them 1000's in engineers/electrician fees.

i had 24 even numbers in a row the other day and the odds of that are roughly the same as winning the lottery - of course after 12 evens i started to bet on odd.

ive also had 10 losers in a row when ive bet on 20 numbers 100's of times.
so this week ive decided to start breaking them. ive done 2 so far, one screen is broke and the other terminal i left on the floor with the cables pulled out the back.
im obviously barred from these shops now but if i keep on doing it then eventually i will be barred from all the local ones and i'll just get my gf to put my bets on and you get alot of satisfaction from it aswell.
i know people will say just dont go in there but every few weeks/months i get drawn in and regret it.

Firefox
29-05-2010, 09:54 AM
I liked the guy who said they had all been updated and over 4000 polish IT bods had swamped the country overnight updating them all! lol!

The terminals aren't rigged. The master computer behind the betting till IS compensated! it makes teh decision on whether or not a "randomly"(true) selected number is the number which graces th screen. if it doesn;t wanna pay teh number is rejected and it awaits another number.

hence the "jump" on the screen occasionally. if it does this you should walk away.

gotta go, some representative from ladbrokes is kicking down my front door as we speak! :-0!

:D

joker53
29-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Well rigged!

Just lost 250 in Betfred 10 *25 bets of 16 numbers and not one signle win. I love the way when you decrease your bets on a single number from 5 to a 1 it nearly always comes in.

They are the biggest con going and are 100% compensated - did someone mention the tories would rip up the gambling law and this could impact the bookies roulette?

trayhop123
29-05-2010, 05:12 PM
to griff50 ,,,,,,,,,,, if you dont think there rigged m8 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, please explain how

for example in ten spins you often see 14,14, 32,14,21,6,37,14,9,14.



five of the same number in very few spins ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and its a very regular occurrence/story , posted by many regulars on here .


yet in real life , in a propper casino ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you would probably never see it ,,,,,,,, .


in fact come to my house with a regular wheel ,,,,,,,,,,,,, and i'll quite happily give you 1000 to 1 odds on any amount you wish to stake ,,,,,,,,, that you wont ever get 5same out of ten spins .




not rigged ????????? with all due respect m8 ,,,,,,,, your a pineapple :P no offence :P

Spyder
29-05-2010, 10:59 PM
cant someone get the software from the itbox style one? itboxes software can be run on a pc...

griff50
30-05-2010, 12:11 AM
to trayhop,
Mate, when you see 14 5 times in 10 displayed numbers, its actually 14 5 times out of about 10 times 10 numbers, as I have already said the sequence is just an exert from the actual run of numbers. It is just when you hit the spin that the number is chosen, as I've said.

Go to Gala casino in leicester. Sit and use one of their cards and track the numbers. You will see that after about 100 numbers there are some which are repeating more than others. Although the random number generator is not the same as natural randomness, it is fairly close, otherswise some people would always win. Everyone has their own numbers and so therefore if it's rigged, and it has give the same number all over the country at the same time, it follows that there must be some 'good' numbers which win more than others.

The reason why lots of people lose at fobt is that they are trying to force a number to come in by playing on constantly. They are also addictive! No number has to come in at any particular time. I sat in gala casino chasing 30 one night 450 later. Still not out. Have also sat on Fobt and had same experience. But find fobt better in all for number chasing, as long as not greedy and not putting on 20 bets first spin.

As for being a pineapple, I have an degree in psychology and am shortly undertaking a masters, so I don't believe that I am naive or stupid, whatever your definition of a pineapple is, lol.


:P

Spyder
30-05-2010, 08:22 PM
is that the odds before, during or after the sequence?

because, the odds on the next number being x is 36 to 1

the odds on the next 5 numbers being 36 is whatever you said

and once the sequence has been spun, the odds are 100%



overall, over every time ive ever played roulette.. im up... veeeery fluke i know, but true...

JG
30-05-2010, 09:15 PM
JG edit: Spyder was responding to about 4 posts of babble that I did and have now deleted. I came up with some Heath Robinson maths and Blackmogu has posted something a bit more solid, further on in the thread.


I'll put it succinctly, as I know I babbled on a bit back there.

***If I generate ten random numbers from 0-36 inclusive, there will be approximately a 7400-1 chance of there being five or more of the same number in that sequence***

"Is that the odds before, during or after the sequence?"

Yes it's the odds before I generate the sequence.
During the generation of the sequence, the odds will vary depending on what numbers have been drawn.
After the sequence the result is there, so there are no odds, you either have 5+ numbers the same or you don't.


I know one other person who has played roulette to a considerable degree and is also up, so it's OBviously possible, but the longer you play.......well you know the script.

Alas, I am down on my few forays into the world of roulette, but thankfully not horrendously down, as I hardly ever play roulette.

blackmogu
30-05-2010, 10:54 PM
I'll put it succinctly, as I know I babbled on a bit back there.

***If I generate ten random numbers from 0-36 inclusive, there will be approximately a 7000-1 chance of there being five or more of the same number in that sequence***

"Is that the odds before, during or after the sequence?"

Yes it's the odds before I generate the sequence.
During the generation of the sequence, the odds will vary depending on what numbers have been drawn.
After the sequence the result is there, so there are no odds, you either have 5+ numbers the same or you don't.


I know one other person who has played roulette to a considerable degree and is also up, so it's OBviously possible, but the longer you play.......well you know the script.

Alas, I am down on my few forays into the world of roulette, but thankfully not horrendously down, as I hardly ever play roulette.

You need to sum the probabilities of all ten matching down to all five matching, which would be :-

10 Matching (1/37)^9 +
9 Matching (10C9)(1/37)^8 (36/37) +
8 Matching (10C8)(1/37)^7 (36/37)^2 +
7 Matching (10C7)(1/37)^6 (36/37)^3 +
6 Matching (10C6)(1/37)^5 (36/37)^4 +
5 Matching (10C5)(1/37)^4 (36/37)^5

Which comes out to approx 1.2x10^-4, or odds of 1 in 10,000 approximately.

Spyder
31-05-2010, 08:53 AM
someone ought to print the maths out and stick a copy to the screen on every roulette they see... lol




i had 17 come out loads of times within the viewable history once it was summat like this

11 0 17 17 17 32 17 25 17 9 17 9 14 32

first few spins i was spinning about 6 a spin over about 10 numbers

i won on every spin.. apart from the 14 and the 11 (the last number)

once the 17 came in more than twice, i started betting heavilly on and around it, and also on zero (as it really pisses me off when it spins to that when you bet on numbers(as opposed to sections))

by the last 17 coming in i had 13 on it, and just over 10 on zero


from putting 60 in, i came off with over 1000, the last two winning spins profiting around 410 and 300 plus a build up from the previous 10 spins...

i lost 100 on the last spin... as i covered every number >25 with a random sweep of 5 chips.


FOBT's do pay out... but it is random enough for you to lose on. so it is a complete gamble, nothing can give you an advantage, apart from knowing what the bets mean and which ways to bet... theres even one bookies that dont give the full odds on a 1/2 number bet, so you win more if you put 1 on each number oposed to 2 split.. which is a bit sneaky... other than knowing this, there are no advantages, which will OBviously piss off the number-crunching ones of you who play fruits for a living....

trayhop123
31-05-2010, 10:42 AM
griff m8 , i have read your post thoroughly , and understand exactly what your saying , but your "over so many spins" argument is just rubbish ,,,,,,,,,

ask any full time real roulette sadict player , who has watched hundreds of thousands of spins ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he's still never ever seen a string of 10-12 spins with 5+ of the same number

blackmogu
31-05-2010, 12:25 PM
griff m8 , i have read your post thoroughly , and understand exactly what your saying , but your "over so many spins" argument is just rubbish ,,,,,,,,,

ask any full time real roulette sadict player , who has watched hundreds of thousands of spins ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he's still never ever seen a string of 10-12 spins with 5+ of the same number

I have to contradict your assertion there. I saw 17 come up 5 times in 7 spins whist eating a steak in Grosvenor Bristol, approximately 10 years ago.

It was particularly galling, since it was one of my numbers, and I was on that table before my meal was ready.

About a year earlier the same thing happened with a different number at Stakis in Bristol.

fmp
31-05-2010, 12:34 PM
Dont play heavily but i was in gala a few evenings ago, i was playing on there roullette machines but where you can bet on a live wheel, when i bet i usually cover half of the wheel one side or the other so 14 and either side or 17 or either side, i started betting on the 14 side and the result of 5 spins on the row were 28 28 28 7 28, obviously all winners for me so i was happy but does go to show how something like that as rare as it can be can actually happen

trayhop123
31-05-2010, 02:05 PM
ok blackmogu ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, lets say i believe you ,,,,,,,,,,,,, twice in ten years


fobt ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,at least twice a day (someone on em all day)



now someone try to tell me there not rigged


ps my odds offer is open to anyone ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, anyone that is stupid enough



pps you blooming got what you blooming wished for george :P

trayhop123
31-05-2010, 02:34 PM
griff m8 the pineapple quip was just a friendly insult lol nothing more ,,,,,,,,,,, but i find one of the last lines of your post amusing too

'' But find fobt better in all for number chasing, as long as not greedy and not putting on 20 bets first spin.''


that's the point isn't it


put 20p on 15 numbers for example ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you'll still lose overall granted , but you'll get a fair amount of hits ,,,,,,,, at least 1 in 5 spins ,,,,,,,,,, with some strings of 3 to 4 hits on the trot etc


put maximum on 15 numbers ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, chances are you'll have strings of 18+spins without a hit. ,,,,,,,,,,,, and never hit strings of 3 to 4 on the trot


why does this happen all tooooo OFTEN for so many people


not rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,, bollocks

joker53
31-05-2010, 03:31 PM
I was playing 8 on no 13 the other week in Hills. Lost about 150 but could not believe the amount of times it gave me 27 and 36 which are either side of 13...was this to intelligently trick me into thinking that it was a 'near miss' and my number was sure to follow soon.

This happens far too often for my liking and have to agree these are rigged to the hilt! On the machine next to me some guy hit number 9, 4 times in a row....says it all really.

PMK
31-05-2010, 04:01 PM
100% Random.

Not 100% compensated random like the s16's were and now b3's are.

You get lucky and u get unlucky. That's roulette for u.

One vice that has never interested me in the slightest apart from the odd score now and again.

trayhop123
31-05-2010, 04:16 PM
100% rigged pmk m8

17,4,17,17

explain that

Mr McStreak
31-05-2010, 04:24 PM
Fucking hell, when will people understand that roulette doesn't need to be rigged, its set up nicely in the houses favour.

If you win you are lucky.

If you lose you simply have experienced the most likely outcome. You can never expect to win at roulette. I always expect to lose, so when Ido occasionally win its a nice surprise.

While its highly unlikely that you will see multiple repeats on numbers it does happen, because of the random nature its bound to occur at some point.

Mr McStreak
31-05-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm not singling you out there by the way, trayhop.

Its just my belief that they aren't bent in any way.

pager
31-05-2010, 04:31 PM
Agreed they don't need to be rigged/fixed.BUT,where there is money in this world there is greed.An extra few % here and there in favour of the fobt will make alot over the longrun.
I'm on the fence on this one.

trayhop123
31-05-2010, 05:08 PM
of course they dont need to be rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but they are



all of you that are saying their not rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,,, please have a go at a lenthy constructive explanation of the ,,,,,,,,,,, '' every day occurrence of ,,,,, for example 12, 37,12,8,12, 12, 4, 35, ''

"at some point'' rich m8 ?
which is rare as rocking horse shit on a regular wheel.
but every lenthy fobt sesh ,,,,,,,, regularity
dont just say their not rigged , without explaining please.

ming
31-05-2010, 05:28 PM
how about when i saw someone bet on every street except the lower 2 and the next numbers came out '1,2,3,4,5,6' in a row.

Mr McStreak
31-05-2010, 05:51 PM
of course they dont need to be rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but they are



all of you that are saying their not rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,,, please have a go at a lenthy constructive explanation of the ,,,,,,,,,,, '' every day occurrence of ,,,,, for example 12, 37,12,8,12, 12, 4, 35, ''

"at some point'' rich m8 ?
which is rare as rocking horse shit on a regular wheel.
but every lenthy fobt sesh ,,,,,,,, regularity
dont just say their not rigged , without explaining please.

I take it all back. If a roulette machine managed to spin number 37 then its definitely rigged.

I'm not saying they aren't rigged, its just my opinion that they aren't. Nobody has any credible evidence to suggest they are bent, everyone has differing opinions.

trayhop123
31-05-2010, 06:10 PM
i through the 37 in ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, was waiting for someone to spot it ,,,,,,, well done rich m8 .



so will anybody have a credible crack at the explanation ?????

keno
31-05-2010, 09:04 PM
Rigged or not rigged?

Not rigged.

Been-Grant-Mitchell'd!
31-05-2010, 09:56 PM
Rigged or not, I think it's up to the individual whether he plays them or not.

I did see someone play one, leaving out only 16 & 19 . . .

Four spins: 19 . . . 19 . . . 19 . . . 16!

Now Lucky 8 on the other hand . . .

JG
31-05-2010, 10:17 PM
Lee where all you getting all this anecdotal evidence of strings of repeating numbers from? The last place I'd expect to see Captain Discipline is inside a licenced betting office in front of a fixed odds betting terminal.
I take it that your feed is a small annoying ****, can't say that on here, else we'll get the PC brigade on and before we know it, we'll be on about those bloody planes again.
If you up your odds to 20,000-1 then I might pop a few pennies your way next time I'm in Leicester on the off chance I drop a sneaky 200.

The logical explanation as to seeing 'unusual' numbers is that there are more spins per minute than in a casino. On any one terminal I can instantly access about 6 different histories for various roulette games.

Roulette/pure gambling is something of a mindf*** in itself. You'll always see some patterns expressed more vividly than others.
"I knew as soon as I started betting even it'd start doing odds"

I'd imagine they are either
a) Truly random
b) There is a 'hidden' non graphical extra 0 (or two!) that when selected will go on to display the worst possible number from 0-36 depending on what has been bet.


Given the amount of moaning re: odds on betting, such as covering 35 numbers to get a probable small profit or rare big loss, given the amount of moaning and pointing out of such events, it's a possibility that b) is in place. If they were going to rig it. That's how they'd do it

I don't think there is any complex compensation going on. To be honest I'm inclined to think a) with a small hint of b).


Cheers,

JG

griff50
31-05-2010, 10:42 PM
Tray, as for number chasing, I wouldn't ever cover more than 5 numbers. Usually when I have time to kill, I go 80p on 27, 20p each neighbours. Not huge gambling, but good fun to pass the time. This way I have enough of an inclination to climb in bets without going skint in 10 spins! A sort of longwinded martingale but not doubling, just keeping a bearing on how much I have spent / won. i believe people who don't have PATIENCE make very bad roulette playerds!

I think in all number sequences you can always pick out patterns that actually mean nothing. It is a computer picking the numbers not a wheel, therefore when I'm chasing 27, 6 and 13 are never 'NEAR' to 27.

I've actually seen 3 17's in a row at leicester gala, blue table about 2 years ago. Now if someone had that on a fobt and didn't have money on it, they would scream 'rigged!' This time a guy had quite a few quid on it!!

Just to re-iterate the sequences that we see are only exerts from the true sequence, and as it is impossible to ever map the full sequence, and then possibly work out the step which creates the random number, we will never know how the numbers are exactly generated.

The only way to get a glimpse of the full sequence is to have people in about 10 betting shops all press the button a second after eacch other, linked by phone, then record this and go from there.

No worries about the pineapple comment by the way.

Spyder
31-05-2010, 11:16 PM
Rigged or not, I think it's up to the individual whether he plays them or not.

I did see someone play one, leaving out only 16 & 19 . . .

Four spins: 19 . . . 19 . . . 19 . . . 16!

Now Lucky 8 on the other hand . . .

on lucky 8, my bets would be........

Spyder
31-05-2010, 11:16 PM
if anyone wants to meet up in sheffield, ill show you my never ending roulette streak

ob
01-06-2010, 12:57 AM
Shows how naive most gamblers are to think the following:

a) that fobt are not random... they are...
b) that "strange" number patterns are more prevelant on these than real roulette..

a) roulette makes huge money whether rigged or not so why rig it, people invariably do not get off with profit they feed it back through therefore surrendering to the house edge.

b) you see loads more patterns on fobt, as you see so many more SPINS on them than real roulette that takes ages to spin etc.!

Why would there be number patterns even if they were rigged... if there was any predictability, they could be exploited, so this is clealy not going to be the case!

As I've truthfully said before, Ive certainly got more than 100% payout from them, and I rarely play them, Ive seen people cover every number but one and it come up twice in a row AND I've seen people cover 1 number and it come up twice in a row... THATS RANDOMNESS for u folks... I've even had myself 13 on 9, first spin come up for the 500!

End of the day roulette is just a gamble, its not in your favour, it aint rigged but it's gonna lose u money long run probably, wherever u play it, be it bookies or casino, unless ur a spawny bastard. I think people are prone to just blaming losses on things being rigged, than just the fact its a poor odds against gamble, which you shouldn't really be doing in the first place!!!!

griff50
01-06-2010, 01:15 AM
well said Ob

Spyder
01-06-2010, 07:09 AM
im not down on roulette either fobt or casino or online

online roulette is definitely "rigged" no point questioning that

as for covering every number, or one number the odds are still 36/1 and i understand that fully, but until someone reverse-engineers the software and proves me wrong, i will always believe that the fobt is random-with a hint of 'no you're not having that number cause i dont want to pay a big win at the minute'

you can do funny things with the fobt, when ive been up on it, i mess around for ages to see what it will do.. play with it with minimum bets for a while

ive bet on black over and over and managed to get it to do 14 winning blacks in a row
bet on one number over and over, then move the chip after about 10 failing spins, and it shows that number

play 2 terminals at a time, pressing start at the same time, bet the same on both, and you get the same outcome, bet opposite on both and watch it lose on both..



it seems like, you either get a winning or losing spin, and to make sure the rng isnt exploitable the losing spin dosnt show the number it picked, just gives any number you havent bet on..so that the last numbers and hot and cold numbers look good

im not some bitter addict who spends my life sweating infront of these things, im genunely up on them, i play them for a laugh, and have been stupidly lucky. the bloke running a local bookies used to come and watch me "to make sure i wasnt doing anything" when i played cause i won too often, and he used to piss himself at my 'system'

Matt Vinyl
01-06-2010, 09:10 AM
Coming from a programming background myself, I've had a lot of involvement in the building of RNGs and they can be accomplished in many different ways.

Not that I've ever had any involvement with Roulette (I wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to playing it!) but...

I just got this sequence from the most basic RNG (built into Excel - which incidentally, was used to select how the boxes were to be distributed in the TV version of DOND! :))

34
36
31
27
13
5
8
23
3
11
3
27
24
27
13
16
26
7
6
27
35
16
12
22
22
32
35
34
5
16

27 appears 4 times and 22 appears twice - in consecutive 'rolls'.

Here's the same sequence sorted in ascending order:

3
3
5
5
6
7
8
11
12
13
13
16
16
16
22
22
23
24
26
27
27
27
27
31
32
34
34
35
35
36

Would there be conspiracies over whether this was a fixed distribution of numbers? Just some food for thought. :)

Spyder
01-06-2010, 09:29 AM
no, because the string in the order it was drawn doesnt have 3 in a row, then one other number then 2 more then a few numbers later another string of similar pattern with another number..

if it was

27
27
27
04
27
27
15
31
27
04
11
04
28
04
04
04
27
27

which is probably an exaggeration, but a nearly example string from a fobt

griff50
01-06-2010, 10:47 AM
The one thing that all of our great minds are forgetting, is that the wheel in a casino doesnt have a memory, so therefore the fobt should not be looked at as having any sort of memory therefore the same number 3 times in ten spins for example is acceptable.

Casinos and fobt machines simply display the history in order to influence your betting and make you believe that certain numbers are due, hence like a deal red boxing for 50 quid but not doing anything!

Numbers do repeat. Quite a lot. This is actually evidence that it is not fixed in any way, as if it wasn't truly random, I don't believe you would see as many repeats as you do. Sometimes I play a few test bets. I.e. pound on red and black, not bothered if a zero comes in , simply to get a look at whats come in, then pick a couple of the numbers and then hope for a repeat.

It can actually work quite well sometimes. Play with the wheel or against the wheel, the choice is yours!

Finaly, All types of Gambling are full of inapropriate beliefs. From granny button-bashing to 'it's dropping so it must pay-lol' to 'zero hasn't come for 100 spins so it must be due.

trayhop123
01-06-2010, 03:01 PM
ok ,,,,,,, look im not gonna be a closed book about this , im open to the concept that maybe there not rigged ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i think spyders quote below could be the most viable



''it seems like, you either get a winning or losing spin, and to make sure the rng isnt exploitable the losing spin dosnt show the number it picked, just gives any number you havent bet on..so that the last numbers and hot and cold numbers look good''



so maybe not rigged in the ripping you off sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but definitely tamperd with


im not 100% sure ,,,,,,,,, afterall unless your the programmer , who honestly knows??
my opinion is staying with rigged though , 5same numbers from 10 on an EVERYDAY EVERY SESH occurrence is just too much for me to swallow as faulty programming


so im gonna close my end of the argument with this .,,,,,,,,,,,,

i would honestly go and buy a cheap argos jobby wheel , and give any of you 1000/1 odds that you wont ever hit 5same numbers from 10 spins ,,,,,,,,,

on fobt ,,,,,,,,,,,,, i wouldn't even give you 5/1 odds

draw your own conclusions from that.

lee.

jesterman
01-06-2010, 05:06 PM
I'm sure I watched a TV program where scientists stated that using current technology, we still cannot build a machine or computer that is truly random.

Matt Vinyl
01-06-2010, 05:13 PM
we still cannot build a machine or computer that is truly random.

There is some truth in that, but it then depends on your definition of random. ;) Wiki Linkage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random)

Mattb
01-06-2010, 05:15 PM
I love this argument always cropping up :D

I've had and seen diabolical things on FOBT roulette that just occur so so so many times it can't be as random as they claim. The odds of such things happening are minute yet they always happen on them!

m1918
02-06-2010, 04:48 PM
i was stupid enough to let these filthy machines almost ruin my life. They are fixed, there is no doubt about that. you're less likely to see this when you are playing with a few quid, its always more random then, but when you're playing big bucks for long periods of time its so obvious. last time i played a few weeks ago i was playing 100 a spin with the maximum on zero, i'd break about even for a few spins, then lose the lot, then break even for a few spins, then lose the lot, then a decent win followed by 3 or 4 losers. never saw a zero in hundreds of spins. then I'm about skint and playing 20p bets and sure enough zero comes in 3 or 4 times in the next dozen or so spins. fair enough you could say this is bad luck, but it was following these patterns on a daily basis. ive had 500 quid in credit, covered most numbers, and seen one of the few numbers i didn't cover come in 5 times in a row (it was 27, i hate that number).
they tease you by landing next door to your big money numbers, bet on zero and see how many times 26 comes in, hmm maybe i up my stake on 26, then watch how many times 3 comes in. spin with your last 100, and it will usually pay slightly less than your steak in the hope that you'll put another 20 in to repeat you bet.
they are a complete mindf**k, designed to mess with your head. of course they have to pay out some time, so you can sometimes have a good day. my local bookie ran out of money one day because the machines had been "going nuts all week", sure enough for the next few weeks nobody won, he said he hadn't paid out a four figure sum in a whole month.
I'll never touch them again and my local bookies has lost a good customer, i could handle a few bad days but to me it was too obvious that they are rigged. they're almost vindictive.
apparently they just provide a list of numbers to prove to the authorities that they are random. it would be more interesting to see a list of numbers together with a list of where the money was on that spin.
im gonna stick to my football coupons from now on.

joker53
03-06-2010, 05:56 PM
Apparently Pricewaterhousecoppers do the auditing on these things and I believe it is as basic as producing a report to show the % of how often the different number occur and so this is their justification of them not being rigged.

I always load up on 13 and 11 and I have seen with remarkable consistenancy the occasions when these numbers never show up on high stakes and once I lower the stake they start coming out the woodwork - in a way designed to mock and play with your mind!

jesterman
03-06-2010, 07:54 PM
For me, I'd say they are no way as fair a a casino wheel.

I was watching a punter laying out the maximum, leaving only two numbers out just to see these two come out four times in succession. When his was down to his last dregs, the numbers he was on big started coming in until he had enough for another max bet then promptly wiped him out completely.

Then there was another guy who used to bet just on zero & thirty three.
He claimed to make so much and even showed me pictures of his winning tickets on his phone. 4000 and such.

I heard he had lost everything he had soon after.

JG
04-06-2010, 12:34 AM
GREEN, YELLOW, BLUE, RED, YELLOW - EXPLAIN THAT!

If you want a big yellow and you're too green to know where it is, let me put some colour in your wallet and hopefully the hills won't have eyes for your small bets.
Yellow came in nine times and missed nine times. I guess the terminal got off Scott free, but I'm only Martal, and have other things to do, so if you want to know, then PM.

PMK
11-06-2010, 06:53 AM
I was in Luton casino last weekend and I watched in horror as some poor fucker doin about 200 a spin on grouped numbers. He lost about 2k in minutes and then it span in 14,14,14,23,23 & 23!! Needless to say he wasn't on those no.s!!

Shit happens!!

barafear799
08-07-2010, 05:42 PM
Hi,

Just joined - but have been reading these forums on & off for a while.
Just read this whole thread - and there a number of interesting thoughts - however, it appears that most people seem to miss the most obvious point (until a poster a few posts back) and that is that on fobts, the machine knows where you place your bet - and how much - therefore the "winning" number is based on this. As for audits and suchlike, of course it needs to be based on the auditor placing a real-life stake on a machine and pressing go. I pretty much agree with the very first post in this thread that they play to about 88% rather than 97%. Here's a few musings:

Bookies own most of the dog tracks from where BAGS races are taken - therefore they control the betting market - the average SP % makeup on a bags race is 130%+ (ie: a return of around 76% for the punter) -

They run their own "virtual" races - and the betting on these is "fixed" - again to a high %.

Nearly everything they do they can fix the price - they used to be able to fix the price of horses a while back - before the days of betfair etc. - because they'd back a horse down at the track etc etc.

So why would they be so welcoming in offering the punter a betting opportunity with only a 3% edge to the house. I agree that someone playing a fobt is likely to play more than 1 spin (then again, people have been know to bet on every dog race) - ok I'll leave that hanging in the air.

as for the people who say there is no need to fix it, and that roulette is a game with a negative expectation etc etc - others have even quoted (elsewhere on the web forums etc) that because the negative edge is 3%, then if you start off with 50, then you should expect to lose it in 10-15 spins or whatever (as in after 1 spin, you'll be down to 48.50, then 47, then 45.50, etc etc).

However, this all supposes that you lose!!! It is possible to win!! And depending on "how many numbers" you bet on - then there should be an expectation that you should get a winning spin.

So you bet on, say, 30 numbers - you have an 80% chance of getting a positive return - now I am not saying if you sit down for an hour, pressing repeat, that every spin has to be a loser- but you should pretty much expect to have 80% spins where your numbers have come in - however, the opposite tends to happen - well almost. The most "unlikely" outcome hits you quick! Someone once said, if you go to a casino and bet in a certain way, and stay there for a few hours, you'll probably come out losing. On a fobt, you will lose, and it will be so much quicker (not purely because of the faster spin speed either).

Unfortunately, I am like a couple of the previous posters - I know I will probably lose - and probably quickly - and probably in "controversial" circumstances (like, bet on zero for 10 spins, leave it off and watch it come in and clear you out) - but I am drawn to them - they are there (the nearest casino is a 45 min drive away) - you go in and expect that with an average amount of luck, you can stick in 20, or 50 - and make a little bit - but inevitably, almost without fail, and without giving you a chance to collect a "decent" profit, they wipe you out. You come out and think - what have I done wrong?

Just a feeling in my stomach, but it would appear in the last 6-12 months, they have become so much worse. I'm sure some of you (who play them) can remember actually winning at some stage - nowadays, it's a struggle to even remeber pressing the collect button and going up to the counter.
I watched someone else play them in my local last week - she was varying her bets quite a lot - different numbers, different stakes etc etc.
It seemed clear after a short period that the only constant was her dipping into her purse to feed another note into the machine - every now and then her balance would shoot up to 80 or so (she was betting relatively low) - then a couple of sunny spins - first she obviously got the hump - just placed a bet of about 1.80 - just covering no.5 and all its splits and corners - hey presto - no.5 comes in!!! A few spins later - she decides to play 2 on no.1, 1 on no.2 and a few other small bets - total stake < 5. no.1 rolls in - she gets quite excited - and shows her mate on the next machine - then she presses repeat - and bumps up her bet to about 30 - covering lots more numbers - I was convnced that it would roll in a loser - but alas - I was wrong - no.4 came in, she had 1 on it (so a small profit) - next 3 spins all lost - and she was back to loading another note in -

started watching another guy next to her - he was betting big - 50-100 a spin - he got up to a balance of about 350 - and then I just watched as spin after spin lost - and out he went empty handed.

Someone else on another one in the same shop - much the same -

I was sat there for about an hour - watching about 7 diff people play the 4 machines - and not one did I see collect anything......

Ok, roulette has a negative expectation - but tell me how often you see people cashing in their chips at a casino??

mr lugsy
08-07-2010, 06:01 PM
quality first posting and indeed plausible.

keno
08-07-2010, 07:37 PM
Hi,

Just joined - but have been reading these forums on & off for a while.
Just read this whole thread - and there a number of interesting thoughts - however, it appears that most people seem to miss the most obvious point (until a poster a few posts back) and that is that on fobts, the machine knows where you place your bet - and how much - therefore the "winning" number is based on this. As for audits and suchlike, of course it needs to be based on the auditor placing a real-life stake on a machine and pressing go. I pretty much agree with the very first post in this thread that they play to about 88% rather than 97%. Here's a few musings:

Bookies own most of the dog tracks from where BAGS races are taken - therefore they control the betting market - the average SP % makeup on a bags race is 130%+ (ie: a return of around 76% for the punter) -

They run their own "virtual" races - and the betting on these is "fixed" - again to a high %.

Nearly everything they do they can fix the price - they used to be able to fix the price of horses a while back - before the days of betfair etc. - because they'd back a horse down at the track etc etc.

So why would they be so welcoming in offering the punter a betting opportunity with only a 3% edge to the house. I agree that someone playing a fobt is likely to play more than 1 spin (then again, people have been know to bet on every dog race) - ok I'll leave that hanging in the air.

as for the people who say there is no need to fix it, and that roulette is a game with a negative expectation etc etc - others have even quoted (elsewhere on the web forums etc) that because the negative edge is 3%, then if you start off with 50, then you should expect to lose it in 10-15 spins or whatever (as in after 1 spin, you'll be down to 48.50, then 47, then 45.50, etc etc).

However, this all supposes that you lose!!! It is possible to win!! And depending on "how many numbers" you bet on - then there should be an expectation that you should get a winning spin.

So you bet on, say, 30 numbers - you have an 80% chance of getting a positive return - now I am not saying if you sit down for an hour, pressing repeat, that every spin has to be a loser- but you should pretty much expect to have 80% spins where your numbers have come in - however, the opposite tends to happen - well almost. The most "unlikely" outcome hits you quick! Someone once said, if you go to a casino and bet in a certain way, and stay there for a few hours, you'll probably come out losing. On a fobt, you will lose, and it will be so much quicker (not purely because of the faster spin speed either).

Unfortunately, I am like a couple of the previous posters - I know I will probably lose - and probably quickly - and probably in "controversial" circumstances (like, bet on zero for 10 spins, leave it off and watch it come in and clear you out) - but I am drawn to them - they are there (the nearest casino is a 45 min drive away) - you go in and expect that with an average amount of luck, you can stick in 20, or 50 - and make a little bit - but inevitably, almost without fail, and without giving you a chance to collect a "decent" profit, they wipe you out. You come out and think - what have I done wrong?

Just a feeling in my stomach, but it would appear in the last 6-12 months, they have become so much worse. I'm sure some of you (who play them) can remember actually winning at some stage - nowadays, it's a struggle to even remeber pressing the collect button and going up to the counter.
I watched someone else play them in my local last week - she was varying her bets quite a lot - different numbers, different stakes etc etc.
It seemed clear after a short period that the only constant was her dipping into her purse to feed another note into the machine - every now and then her balance would shoot up to 80 or so (she was betting relatively low) - then a couple of sunny spins - first she obviously got the hump - just placed a bet of about 1.80 - just covering no.5 and all its splits and corners - hey presto - no.5 comes in!!! A few spins later - she decides to play 2 on no.1, 1 on no.2 and a few other small bets - total stake < 5. no.1 rolls in - she gets quite excited - and shows her mate on the next machine - then she presses repeat - and bumps up her bet to about 30 - covering lots more numbers - I was convnced that it would roll in a loser - but alas - I was wrong - no.4 came in, she had 1 on it (so a small profit) - next 3 spins all lost - and she was back to loading another note in -

started watching another guy next to her - he was betting big - 50-100 a spin - he got up to a balance of about 350 - and then I just watched as spin after spin lost - and out he went empty handed.

Someone else on another one in the same shop - much the same -

I was sat there for about an hour - watching about 7 diff people play the 4 machines - and not one did I see collect anything......

Ok, roulette has a negative expectation - but tell me how often you see people cashing in their chips at a casino??

They still do.

SP Thief's. Particularly at courses where there are only a handful of punters.

I won't go in to too much detail but you only have to look at the SP that Wolverhampton return, compared to their board prices (not to mention betfair) right before the off!

Johnny's Amusements
09-07-2010, 12:25 AM
i was stupid enough to let these filthy machines almost ruin my life. They are fixed, there is no doubt about that. you're less likely to see this when you are playing with a few quid, its always more random then, but when you're playing big bucks for long periods of time its so obvious. last time i played a few weeks ago i was playing 100 a spin with the maximum on zero, i'd break about even for a few spins, then lose the lot, then break even for a few spins, then lose the lot, then a decent win followed by 3 or 4 losers. never saw a zero in hundreds of spins. then I'm about skint and playing 20p bets and sure enough zero comes in 3 or 4 times in the next dozen or so spins. fair enough you could say this is bad luck, but it was following these patterns on a daily basis. ive had 500 quid in credit, covered most numbers, and seen one of the few numbers i didn't cover come in 5 times in a row (it was 27, i hate that number).
they tease you by landing next door to your big money numbers, bet on zero and see how many times 26 comes in, hmm maybe i up my stake on 26, then watch how many times 3 comes in. spin with your last 100, and it will usually pay slightly less than your steak in the hope that you'll put another 20 in to repeat you bet.
they are a complete mindf**k, designed to mess with your head. of course they have to pay out some time, so you can sometimes have a good day. my local bookie ran out of money one day because the machines had been "going nuts all week", sure enough for the next few weeks nobody won, he said he hadn't paid out a four figure sum in a whole month.
I'll never touch them again and my local bookies has lost a good customer, i could handle a few bad days but to me it was too obvious that they are rigged. they're almost vindictive.
apparently they just provide a list of numbers to prove to the authorities that they are random. it would be more interesting to see a list of numbers together with a list of where the money was on that spin.
im gonna stick to my football coupons from now on.
Quite right not to ever play them again. (They are NOT *fixed* though!)

JG
09-07-2010, 10:40 PM
They are random, but not fair. They pay to lower than suggested % by being able to select from a pool of numbers larger than 0-36, so that 37,38,39 etc are biggest possible losses.

They imply 97.3% but in reality would pay less than 90%, fixed enough for me not to play them.

Spyder
09-07-2010, 10:53 PM
i like the post about randomness and it being random hitting the one spot with no bet, and spot with only bet being random...

do it yourself this way

go to a bookies tomorrow

put 40 in two machine next to each other

bet 1 on one number only, the same on each

spin both at exactly the same time, should get same result

do this 5 times,

next spin bet 20p on every number apart from the one you chose

try and do this 5 times...



my bet is that you wont hit the 1 number, but if you do it will be on the second spin
and the machine will 'randomly' hit the missed number at least twice in succession, wihin 5 attempts..

proving either mine or jg's or both our guesses.

ob
10-07-2010, 01:53 AM
Lol Im well up on bookies roulette, and anyone that knows me, knows that its a 100% truth that statement!!!

Must be super lucky to be up on something that is supposedly rigged eh....

PMK
10-07-2010, 07:54 AM
Spyder if u do what u suggested, the machine will do what it always does. That being pick a random number between 0-36 and that's it!!

Doesn't matter if u have 20p or 13 on any amount of numbers, the bets do not affect the number chosen.

There are no such things as patterns on fobt roulette, if there was, instead of exploiting fruit machines don't u think we'd all be sitting in bookies making thousands every day?

I've done brains on roulette a couple of times but once your knee deep in you need far to much LUCK to recover losses and luck is all there is to it. No %age to come back, no patterns to start arriving, no cycled streaks, no bonus freebies, just good old fashioned luck to bail you out.

I hear the same old shit from regulars in my bookies, 'ooh when it spins in 0 get on no.6 normally comes in!' the same regulars who moan they're fixed when the numbers don't come in but not say a fuckin word when they do!! Yet these same people are always on them believing there are patterns and trying to beat them!! Yet failing for months on end, there stupid theories only cost them more and more money!

It's very sad, that grown intelligent men with families and good jobs honestly believe they can beat them cos of what numbers have and haven't come in.

Only my opinion of course. Others will not agree.

Spyder
10-07-2010, 01:41 PM
you misunderstand my point,

i dont believe the machine picks a number and displays it like you would expect

i think it decides if you in or lose, then picks a number you either do or dont have.
or it does 0 - 36 and then a few extra on top as undisplayed house edge,

either of these suggestions would explain "patterns" or the repeated numbers,
the possibility that on a few times ive played it its had four numbers the same come out one after another, other times its had 15 blacks in a row... other wildy unexpected feats of random possibilities

how many times can you flick a coin to heads without cheating? ... you may answer how many times can i flip a coin alternating between heads and tails, but fifteen blacks in a row? at the time there were only red bets on, is this an argument between random and coincidence?

PMK
10-07-2010, 02:48 PM
When I go out playing (fruits) on a Sunday combining that with an all day piss up we split the winnings and then flip a coin for anything over 10 amounts. Eg - 169 means we flip the coin for the odd 9.

My mate always chooses heads, has done from the start. When we started out I won the first two and then lost the next 19 on the trot!!

So it does happen!! Alas my post about when I was in Luton casino a while back. 14 14 14 23 23 23 came in on a normal roulette table.

If the two examples happened on a fobt u'd be screaming rigged!!

Happens now and again.

This is comin from someone who just done a 6 sheet in one without a single winning spin at 20 a time.

Annoying loss but just down to bad luck.

Johnny's Amusements
10-07-2010, 03:00 PM
you misunderstand my point,

i dont believe the machine picks a number and displays it like you would expect

i think it decides if you in or lose, then picks a number you either do or dont have.
or it does 0 - 36 and then a few extra on top as undisplayed house edge,

either of these suggestions would explain "patterns" or the repeated numbers,
the possibility that on a few times ive played it its had four numbers the same come out one after another, other times its had 15 blacks in a row... other wildy unexpected feats of random possibilities

how many times can you flick a coin to heads without cheating? ... you may answer how many times can i flip a coin alternating between heads and tails, but fifteen blacks in a row? at the time there were only red bets on, is this an argument between random and coincidence?
It is entirely possible for either red or black to come in 15 or more times even on a proper casino roulette wheel, so therefore it is to be expected to happen every now and then on a FOBT roulette machine. As for having a "hidden" house edge this would just not be possible under strict Gambling Commission rules. Gambling must be seen to be "Fair and Open" which is one of the Commission's key objectives. Please do not think I am defending these machines. I HATE them! but they are not rigged. They just take your money in a "fair & open" way. i.e. Short odds, the same as a real roulette table. :(

Johnny's Amusements
10-07-2010, 03:12 PM
Oh, and I forgot to mention the fact that when you back any of the even money chances ( true odds=19/18 ) and ZERO comes in on a FOBT machine you lose your entire stake. In a casino in the UK you get half your stake returned. If you are into backing even chances this makes a FOBT a crap bet compared with a casino. Roulette should be restricted to CASINOS ONLY! :?

QuizMaster
10-07-2010, 04:39 PM
Johnny makes a fair point. Would you rig your roulette so you could get an extra 20 off people against a 500 million risk of losing your Gambling License?

JG
10-07-2010, 09:42 PM
Before I think too much about that, does anyone know the business behind these games?

One of our old boys who deosn't float around here any more, or if he does, it's on the QT, went to work for 'Realistic Games' iirc, they were a software house who managed to get a 'pinball roulette' game on Cash Quests in Ladbrokes. Is this more intelligent than the average pooh still here? Do a posting under a silly moniker if you are. Please.

Is there anyone here who could give some insight into how business is conducted?
I notice Ladbrokes have changed the roulette on their Cash Quests to feature two Barcrest products.

OK, I'm the founder of Channel JG games. I've designed a beautiful and functional looking roulette game designed to run on FOBT. Let me tell you now, my game is totally fair. It's roulette, at roulette odds, designed to work with a fair RNG. It has all the bells and whistles that might attract valuable extra business. Spins since last zero, red/black/odd/even%, neighbour bets, hot/cold numbers, 15 number history. Lovely graphical interface that even the most focally/mentally challenged punter can make out. What more do you need? I'm sure all the big chain LBOs would be interested, who do I contact?

Glendale
10-07-2010, 09:54 PM
Cant see the problem, if you think there rigged dont play them or if your that naive to believe there fair then play them and dont moan when you do tits on them! Easy!

JG
10-07-2010, 11:32 PM
Ah but that's the point of this thread, a voyage of discovery hopefully. I'm just curious to know if they're rigged or not.

Maximum bet is 100. %payout should average around 97.3%. It takes 30 seconds to bet and spin and be paid on winning bets.

Opening hours are 10:30am until 9:30pm, 11 hours a day. Let's assume shops are open 365 days a year.

On that maximum bet 5.40 is made per minute.

4 terminals per shop.

21.60 a minute, 1296 an hour. 14256 per day.
5.20344 Million per year.


But does anyone really play 100 spin from doors to doors?

It's rare to see over 20 a spin and even then it's for a few spins, not a thousand or so.


Most city centre bookies have terminals is continuous on/off use throughout the day, quite often it's a cheeky fiver change. Take 2 mins to do a fancy bet with your 5p chips.



1 per spin. 4 terminals. Same calculation as above.

Divide by 100.

52,034 profit.


So to get your million in a year, you're talking an average of 40 bet per minute on every terminal, every hour, every day for the year.


I don't buy it, not even with variance and a Rainbow Riches with pots at 51.23, 151.23 and 252.46 is not the reason either.

http://www.fobt.org.uk/

blackmogu
11-07-2010, 12:06 AM
I second George's analysis - I made the same calculation and came to the same conclusion, but I was too lazy to voice my thoughts.

mr lugsy
11-07-2010, 07:40 AM
can't argue with those cold hard numbers surely .


so for fobts to be making the kind of money that has been quoted they must be pushing 'a bit' extra through the books somehow ?


...or the percentage is way under that of a casino wheel.

joker53
11-07-2010, 03:43 PM
If we're saying that the FOBT are not rigged, why is that the payouts and perceived fairness in different bookmakers chains vary. From my experience over the years I would rate the payouts from the bookmakers in the following order:

William Hill
Betfred
Ladbrokes
Corals
Tote

I would be intersted to see what other peoples view is surrounding preferred bookamkers to play roulette.I was chatting to a guy the other week who was playing 100 spins in Hills and ended up winning 800. He was adamant that the roulette in Totes was a completely rigged and he has never won a 100 spin (spread across 12 numbers) in nearly 30 bets in there. I must admit my experience of playing roulette in Tote is pretty abysmal. I remember winning on 10 bets and every time I upped the bet, to say 30 it was a lose everytime.

Could there be a correlation between the biggest network of roulette terminals probably the big 3 listed above and the perceived fairness. On a smaller network such as Tote you would be less likely to get the big wins as there would be less people to spread the liability. Just a thought...I await for someone to completely debunk my observations!

messiah
11-07-2010, 06:49 PM
Bit of info from Ladbrokes annual report. (Audited by PwC, so no guarantees there ;-) )

http://investors.ladbrokesplc.com/downloads/PrelimStatementDec09.pdf

Pages 9-10 are the relevant ones.

These show that in 2009 the total UK profit Ladbrokes had on all machines was 282.5m or 244.2m depending whether you use Ladbrokes prefered measure (including Fair value adjustments, free bets and VAT), or the International Financial Reporting Standards measure.

Some interesting commentary on the machines as well - average profit was 685 per machine.

Other stuff of interest:

Amount staked on machines is 8.8bn, compared to other Uk amount staked over the counter (OTC) of 2.7bn, however revenue of OTC is approx 50% higher than machines - showing the profitability of the normal betting is much higher.

Spyder
11-07-2010, 09:49 PM
to reply to whoever a few posts up,

im not down on fobt,

im not saying they are rigged to make you lose in a bitter way cause i lost

im simply stating that i fully believe they are not a spinning wheel that lands where physics demands.

something just isnt 'random' about them.

barafear799
12-07-2010, 05:52 PM
They are not a spinning wheel - we all know that (I think) - the arguement does continue (if people want it to) as to whether or not they are random or even rigged. As Spyder says about the feel, it just doesn't "feel" right when it spins in a losing number - looking at this from both sides of the fence, I'm sure we all say the same if we had a bet on Man Utd to beat Burnley last year - they were "supposed" to have won -
I do like the theory about the different bookmakers though.

I once used to play "infrequently" in a Stanley shop - it was the only Stanley shop south of Birmingham (I think) - they'd bought out a local independent - but playing their machines made you feel like you were the only "loser" in the whole country playing them - within 3 or 4 spins, almost an absolute guarantee that you'd be down (regardless of what stake, what numbers, what game you played) - cover 33 numbers and one of the other 4 would be GUARANTEED to come out (obviously if you cover just the 4 numbers, then you could be there until closing time and not see them) -

The same sort of thing "tends" to happen if you play them at other "quiet" times - so maybe if you're feeling desperate and go in before 930am (there's a shop in Liv St Station in London which opens at 8am!!!) - or popping home from a late night at the office and calling in at 7pm or something -

then again, go in on a saturday afternoon - you think the whole country should be fairly busy - but more often than not Saturdays are a really bad day to play them too -

in fact, my belief is that anytime to play them is a bad time - but people do - because of addiction - and ultimately because of false advertising!!!

Of course we cannot prove that they are fixed - they are advertised as "Roulette" but already we know they do not follow the "half stake back on even money shots when zero shows" - how about looking at their other roulette games - such as Will Hill have a lucky 8 game - from memory here - I think it has 51 numbers (0,00,1-49, and an extra number called "lucky 8") - u don't win if you bet on no.8 and lucky 8 comes in - they are separate!!!! - that's 52 numbers isn't it?

Anyway - based on normal roulette odds of paying out 35-1 about a true 36-1 chance, you'd expect odds of 51-1, or maybe 50-1 - but I believe (from memory again) that the odds are only 47-1!!! Great - I haven't looked at the "help screen" - but I'm sure it probably still says it pays out 96 or 97% - it will claim that when lucky 8 comes in it activates a bonus!!!

there is a "jackpot" pool for when lucky 8 comes in - I've never seen it that high - never much more than 50, more often than not 15-25

Basically, even if u did not cover "lucky 8" - it'll spin a "wheel" of 8 numbers - 7 of them are losers, one of them will win you the pot!!! Woopeee!!!!!

Is this how they justify odds of 47-1 (against real odds of 51-1) and still claim to pay out 97%?

There are also the "bonus roulette" games - where when you win you can "gamble" your winnings, and they might be doubled, trebeld, halved, or more likely "reduced to zero"!!!!

I'm sure with them, because they are "paying 35/1" - they must "fix" them somehow to ensure the "true 97% payout"

Sorry - anyone who has played them for any length of time, to varying stakes, must surely edge towards the belief that they are not "true"

On all these forums, you get the people who "patronise" people who hold this viewpoint who say that as it is a game of negative expectation, if you lose, that's exactly what is supposed to happen!!!!

However, there should also be a fair chance that you can win!!! (with a house edge of "only" 3%, then that chance be somewhere in the region of 40%+)

Ladbrokes quoted figures (profits of 280m on turnover of 8.8bn) fit in nicely with the 3% profit margin. But then you wouldn't expect them not to!!!

I am also aware that the % profit is on your turnover, not on what you put in.

So you go in with 50, play 20 a spin for 10 spins - that's turnover of 200, with your 3% edge against you, you'd expect to be down 6

however, this is all too simplistic! And I think this is where the fobts make their mark - they will be quick to correct any variation away from the -3% per spin.

So heaven forbid that you get a win, you can be fairly sure that the next few spins will correct that.

With a normal roulette wheel, casino based, that will not ALWAYS happen. with a fobt it does!!! They know where you place your bet - it's nothing to do with "following" your behaviour. You could pick a different set of 30 random numbers for each spin - if it wants to "correct" the %, it will do it.

Reading the other thread about FOBTS, and seeing the youtube link in the first post, that pretty much sums it up!!

I don't have any "qualms" about them - I just feel they are marketed in the wrong way (as did casinos when they first came into shops) - they are marketed very strongly as roulette - they are not roulette!!! They have a graphical image of a roulette wheel, table and ball - they "supposedly" pay the same odds as roulette - but that's it - they are pretty much the same as fruit machines (sorry - wrong forum to make that comparison) - but most "normal" people who play fruit machines (past or present) probably do not "expect" to win when they insert their money.

The main diff between the two is the level of stake - in the "old days" - even if one was "hooked" on fruit machines, it'd take a long time to lose "life changing/family crisis" amts of money - I know - people could play all day long etc etc - FOBTS with their higher stakes and "instant" loss-making abilities - are just ruthless in their efficiency - bookies are limited to only 4 machines per shop (or 8 if they manage to blatantly screw the law!!!) - so fobts need to make sure they are making the max amt of money - so no point in letting someone play at 1 a spin - just clear them out of their money, and out of the shop - so the next person with fresh money can get on them -

amusement arcades can pretty much have loads of machines -

just some more random ramblings - wonder if many people agree with me?

steveseagull
12-07-2010, 06:31 PM
Great post. But i need to ask; Have you got any "interests" in these machines, Bara?

Spyder
12-07-2010, 06:52 PM
good post that one, however lucky 8 roulette is a completely different matter.



the basics of roulette betting and payback and half raked bets is irrelevent, the whole topic to the point this was mentioned was about the random element of the 'game' and something isnt quite right.

JG
12-07-2010, 10:38 PM
Well those figures are solid fuel for the not rigged brigade. They all seem to imply a 3% edge or thereabouts.

3000 AVERAGE per day STAKED on each individual terminal.
98 gross profit per day, per machine on average.
685 gross profit per machine, per week.



Within the realms of possibility to achieve, still seems a tad far fetched, but like I say, could be done.

The stats all add up and sheer volume of shops, circa 2000, makes for huge profits.

The figure I find hardest to believe in all of that is that Ladbrokes have that many shops.


I'd imagine some staff get mixed up over turnovers and profits.


So is this it? FOBT is NOT rigged?

messiah
13-07-2010, 09:07 AM
Unless of course they are not reporting their figures accurately.

I am happy to run a statistically significant experiment in Ladbrokes.

Can someone donate the 9m total stake (still only 0.1% of total staked) or whatever that would be required?*

* I know it wouldn't actually require 9m as even on massively rigged machines paying 50% you would make 4.5m back or something...

Spyder
13-07-2010, 09:24 AM
yeah but surely that percentage is only right if people play with an exact mathematical system.


people who walk in with 100 and spend half an hour playing with small bets, then realise they are 60 down, put 2 20 bets on within 1 minute and walk out saying its robbed them

the two 20 bets may not have been covering enough numbers to even their chances of hitting, due to lack of understanding or patience of the player the machines can take way more than the 3(theres no percent sign on my phone)

obviously over a long period of time, the house edge eats away at your stake, but once you start betting over your head, the only way to realistkicly recover that money is to bet at that stake all the time, hope that the house edge eats away at that bankroll, and you get a lucky series of hits to recover your loss,

however, more or less everyone ive ever witnessed bets above their bankroll

on poker they say to make sure you have 40xthe big blind.. on roulette people bet stupidly, hoping to hit high early..


f fobt are random, then my 'luck' is outstanding, and i should be playing the lottery more often.

barafear799
13-07-2010, 01:24 PM
I have no "interests" in these machines - other than almost certainly being (sadly) addicted to them - it could easily have been me in that youtube video - however, whether I am addicted or not, I still feel cheated that I feel that I am being scr***ed because the machines "feel" rigged.

Merely a coincidence - here's what happened to me today - I came into "town" and needed to get a train - parked up nearby - went to catch train - it had been cancelled - next one was a 40 min late - and might also have been cancelled - there's another line closeby (20 min walk) - so I decided on that - however, the walk takes me past 2 bookies (W Hill & Ladb) - decided to pop in and play a "cheeky" 20 - it was about 11am - stuck my 20 in - and just randomly put some 25p chips alpong all the streets and 6-lines - starting from 0/1/2/3 split and randomly covering most of the splits all the way down to 28/29/30 - last hit of the screen I meant to put another chip on 28/29/30 street -but I hit the 3rd dozen box - so I let it ride - spun the wheel - and 36 comes in - a loss - cut a long story short - next 5 spins were all losers!!! - 33,35 both came in. 17 came in (which happened to have a gap in my random tapping of chips) - so even that (a fav number) was a small loser -


So covering all 37 numbers in some way or other (but obviously 31-36 were "relatively big losers" and zero too) - I had 6 losers on the bounce - obviously my 20 had gone and another 20 had gone in -

I won't go into too much detail - but over the next 10 spins or so - 36 came in again - having seen 33,35,36 (twice) - i then decided that 34 (a habitual loser for me as it is a neighbour of 17, and I don't generally cover it) is probably gonna come in (I don't believe in patterns or anything - I just felt the machine was "killing" me - so it would "pick" another loser pretty soon) - so I cover 34 straight up - and also the splits with 31 and 35 (so at least if they came in I would lose quite so much) -

anyway - next 3 spins, and 36 came out twice more!!

I then changed my bet slightly - covered all the numbers from 7 thru to 33.

Next spin: 36
Then: 2
Then: 4


Now far be it for me to say that they are rigged!!

Anyway - the next bit is for added "interest" - I collected some remnants - I needed to pay for the train fare - so up to the counter to collect - whilst there (I was obviously fuming inside - for being so stupid to have played them - and also feeling cheated out of my cash) - the cashier said "next time you want to play them, rather than putting the money in the machine, come up here and you can get a free scratchcard!!! You might win!" - I didn't mean to be rude to her - I laughed out loud - and said something like "at least Ladbrokes do comedy to cheer you (me) up" - she missed the irony in my voice - and said "no really, you could win" - and I replied "no-one has any fucking chance of winning on those things" - she replied "With that sort of attitude you won't be allowed in here anymore" - I said "Bar me"

Yes - if only I could self-exclude myself - however, there's about 15 bookies with 3 miles of where I live or work. Then I often travel elsewhere -

it'd be easier if I could just stop myself!!!


Here's another little thing to try in a betting shop:

Go in with 500 cash - go up to the counter and try and place a bet on some random 14/1 shot on the horses (or 10/1 shot or whatever) - inevitably when they refuse to take the bet - ask if if's ok for them to load it onto the machines for you to play a few numbers (the equiv of a 10/1 shot!) - see what they say


Ok - cynics will say in a single spin you are limited to only winning 500 - whereas the horsebet was a 5k liability for the shop!!!

But play a few spins - and surely the shop might be facing the same sort ofliability with "average" luck!!!

Now - before I sign off - how many people on here reckon I would have seen the same set of numbers (36 numerous times, 35,33, 2,4, etc,etc) if I had bet 20 a spin just covering the 7 lowest numbers (incl zero) and the 6 highest numbers......

The % theorists (ie: those who believe the machines are not fixed - and that a -3% edge will make you lose) will claim "I just hit an unlucky streak" (ie: why my % loss in my little session was probably way in excess of 3%)

But from experience - from people's experiences on here - and elsewhere - these losing streaks are all too common (far more common than any win streak!!!)

Sorry to rant!!!

Spyder
13-07-2010, 10:22 PM
big post

sounds to me like you've played these a lot

have you any experience of playing two at a time?

superpav
14-07-2010, 12:04 AM
i def think these have become harder to win on. 3/4 years ago i used to win a lot but now i hardly ever seem to win

i notice i harldy ever win to start off with. it always seem to wait untile i got down to my last 10.

i think smaller betting shops are the worst. i hardly ever seem to win on there.

and when i bet smal stakes like 5 a spin i do ok but if i go stupid and bet 20/30 a spin i tend to always lose

another thing i dont like is in small shops i always feel they or watchin me behind the counter.

barafear799
14-07-2010, 08:44 AM
yes I've played them plenty Spyder - and yes on occasion I've played two at a time - on some it does spin the same number - other times it doesn't. Certainly with the old Ladbrokes machines (going back a couple of years) it was far less likely to.

However, the much more interesting post (nothing personal Spyder, and only because it pretty much agrees with me!) is the next post -

last 3/4 years - even in the last year they have become nearly impossible to win on - and this should not be the case with a true random game with "only" a 3% edge to the house. Small stakes - hmmm - but even nowadays with small stakes it screws u over in double quick time - to such an extent that if you spread your small stake (lets say 10) over between 25-30 scattered numbers across the board - you almost expect it to hit a loser - probably a small loser to start with (something you've just got a small corner or split on) - but within 3 spins, you expect to see one of the numbers to wipe out your 10.

And heaven forbid - if you ever get a good number (this depends on how you bet I guess - my "good" numbers will only ever win me a max of prob 70-100% profit on my spin stake - others will pile up big on a small selection of numbers - so they may well win 300%+ on a good number) - anyway - if u do get a good number, you kinda know in your bones that pressing repeat will bring a losing number next spin -

I've even tried to "out-think" the machine (dangerous) thinking that when I press start there are probably another couple of hundred people pressing start on the same "network" who are gonna get the same number as me - therefore, if the "machine" automatically scans everyone's bets to produce a "return" of 97% (or as a lot of us suspect, maybe 95% or lower!) on all those bets, then to improve your chances, you should maybe avoid those "popular" numbers on the board!!

That begs the question - what are the popular numbers -

well - I think zero has to be popular (personally I rarely cover it)
17,26,29,32

In fact, a lot of the middle column numbers

8.11.23 being near neighbours too

prob 20 too being that it is pretty much in the "middle of the board"

I've pretty much said that the middle column is popular!!! There must be some others that are more popular than others -

however - using this "ingenious" method (ie: ignoring those numbers) just had the same results again!!!

Just look at the run of winning numbers when I decide not to cover them!!!

I've never seen so many 17s and 29s in my life -

All of which rather debunks the theory that you are playing the same "spin" as hundreds of others -

yes I agree in the same shop - on a fair proportion of occasions, it does spin the same number - but that's only gonna be a max of 4 -

And interesting to know anyone's experiences if, for example, one machine has a couple of quid staked on, lets say, 4 numbers (4 x 50p straight up bets) - and the other machine has 100 spread over 30 different numbers - so between the two there are 3 uncovered numbers -

then again - anyone with a sane mind will not try this experiment - because I think most people would expect a very quick reduction in the 100 stake's bank balance in not too many spins.......

Spyder
14-07-2010, 08:55 AM
as far as im aware, no betting shops are connected, the random number generator is in the shop and controlling only one shops machines,

if anyone wants to test this theory we could go to a ladbrokes or william hill or whatever in different towns nad talk on the phone at the same time....

pretty unlikely that there are hundreds of people sat in all the different betting shops getting the same number, pretty exploitable system

Spyder
14-07-2010, 09:01 AM
yes I've played them plenty Spyder - and yes on occasion I've played two at a time - on some it does spin the same number - other times it doesn't.


most of them will spin the same things in...

bet a 1 on two machines next time you go in (same numbers on both), press start at exactly the same time, it should give the same number.. as you say, some bookies dont, so must have more than one RNG, but most spin the same in on identical bets.. but start fucking with it, bet one red one black.. they will both go opposite, or one might win. but they wont be the same number, but on identical bets, they always land the same???

PMK
14-07-2010, 09:06 AM
Roulette tables and machines have been around for years because they make 's and big 's!

They don't need to be rigged as the odds are ALWAYS stacked against you. It's that simple.

It seems that people only seem to bring this up when they've done brains in one. What about the quick touches people get?

I had one yesterday, 10 in 130 out 3 of my few no.s came in out of four spins!!

Now was that rigged? Was the machine in payout mode? Was it trying to make up %age? A mini streak?

NO! Just a bit of luck!!

There was a guy sat on one for about 2 hours doin about 60 a spin while I was faffing about with 5-20 bets on dogs and horses. He left 300 up. 60 a spin for 2 hours? 300 up? Rigged or his lucky day?

On the other terminal some chink did about 200 of 20 spins and got fuck all and left? Rigged or his unlucky day?

See where I'm goin?????

barafear799
14-07-2010, 04:35 PM
in response to PMK:

I can see where you're going - you're giving a few small examples of people playing them (in fairly short time)

I agree that those of us that think they are rigged also give small examples - however, I, for one, can look at it over a much longer period - both from playing (rather stupidly) and also watching others - over a period of time, the suggestion has been that the punter is losing far more heavily and quickly than they should.

As I've said though, it is impossible to prove - because the answer can basically be: "if it was a possibility, then it might happen" (ie: if you cover 36 numbers, and the other one comes in, then what did u expect)

It's like thinking that a match on a footy coupon on a Saturday will finish in a 3-2 result to the outsider (sorry I was just thinking of a suitable 33/1 shot in a sporting environment - I think 3-2 to the outsider in a footy match is a fair comparison)

Ok - when the footy season starts - go down the results on a Sunday - let's say 45 matches (ignore Scotland) - count how many 3-2 victories for the outsider.


Then go into any betting shop - play 45 spins and cover 36 numbers (even change which one you leave out midway thru) - what's the chances there will be more "losers" on the fobt than winners on the footy?

Sorry - I'm getting a bit carried away now.......

DildoDez
14-07-2010, 04:54 PM
in response to PMK:

I can see where you're going - you're giving a few small examples of people playing them (in fairly short time)

I agree that those of us that think they are rigged also give small examples - however, I, for one, can look at it over a much longer period - both from playing (rather stupidly) and also watching others - over a period of time, the suggestion has been that the punter is losing far more heavily and quickly than they should.

As I've said though, it is impossible to prove - because the answer can basically be: "if it was a possibility, then it might happen" (ie: if you cover 36 numbers, and the other one comes in, then what did u expect)

It's like thinking that a match on a footy coupon on a Saturday will finish in a 3-2 result to the outsider (sorry I was just thinking of a suitable 33/1 shot in a sporting environment - I think 3-2 to the outsider in a footy match is a fair comparison)

Ok - when the footy season starts - go down the results on a Sunday - let's say 45 matches (ignore Scotland) - count how many 3-2 victories for the outsider.


Then go into any betting shop - play 45 spins and cover 36 numbers (even change which one you leave out midway thru) - what's the chances there will be more "losers" on the fobt than winners on the footy?

Sorry - I'm getting a bit carried away now.......

why? :?

Isn't that just the same as ignoring all losing spins when 17 is left uncovered, and 17 'rolls' in?

ming
14-07-2010, 08:18 PM
ive noticed in a corals that when you press the starts buttons at the same time they come up with diff numbers now

also saw a bloke win 500 off one of those scratchcards in ladbrokes yesterday, couldnt believe it

JG
14-07-2010, 09:19 PM
I think it's a lot harder to get the same number with pressing at the 'same' time as the RNG generates more random numbers per second than it used to do.

Edwardb, you mention in a nearby thread that if the machine was rigged, then there would be serious consequences from the gaming comission.


Now I'm going to divert away from LBO FOBT for a bit and I wish to talk about a B3 (also C) product in the current market. Namely CMS Classic Roulette and also the super bets on some CMS games. This is all reliant on witness A and what witness A wishes to divulge and talk about openly on these forums.

Officer! Would you step forward and talk about blocked super bets please etc if that's not asking too much. Also funny numbers, although I appreciate some things you may not wish to talk about in too much depth on here.


I'm now struggling to believe that 3000 staked per day on each terminal. I've been in outskirt Ladbrokes for reasons other than roulette and noticed many long periods during which machines are unplayed or punters just stick in shrapnel. For a town centre Ladbrokes, maybe, you often see all four terminals in play. An outskirts Ladbrokes? I don't buy it. Also consider much of their 2000 shop estate would be outskirt based shops. Is this all reasonable assumption, or pointless hot air in the face of cold hard facts?

maverick69
14-07-2010, 11:28 PM
The last time i played one was about 6 months ago, i lost 180 that day, i remember it vividly bcos i lost all the notes i had one me, went into my pocket and took 1.50 out and put it on 2 with a split on 5 for 50p only bcos 22 had come in last time. dink 45 quid. now i hadnt won a single spin in 9 covering around 14 numbers now after this day i knew something didnt feel right. and i never played one again

edwardb
15-07-2010, 02:51 PM
Edwardb, you mention in a nearby thread that if the machine was rigged, then there would be serious consequences from the gaming comission.


Correct. They are seizing illegal machines like there is no tomorrow at the moment.

The industry is very good at policing itself, certainly when it comes to the big boys, and anyone who flouts the rules will get a letter or a phone call with a gentle nudge to tow the line.

The consequences for all involved - manufacturers and operators - if machines were "fixed" is just incomprehensible.

As for FOBT machines's takings, well it varies per site, but the real money is made online these days. I prefer to play online nowadays, the returns are so much better at ~96.5%. Who'd play an AWP at 78% with a 70 jackpot? Not me!

Scott
15-07-2010, 03:36 PM
Me :)

PMK
15-07-2010, 07:23 PM
Me 2!!

I've seen what these high %age 'random' on line machines can take for a single feature!!

edwardb
16-07-2010, 01:32 PM
Me 2!!

I've seen what these high %age 'random' on line machines can take for a single feature!!

Yep, but you can also get a bonus and a big win in just a few games. I was just playing DaVinci Diamonds a minute ago, 3 spins in and 6 freespins, retriggered twice, and 95 for a 3 stake, thanks very much.

That is the beauty of random games. But playing at 95% you get a much better game for your money!

JG
16-07-2010, 10:09 PM
At 3/spin, with no feature to play, that 95 will disappear in the blink of a blinking eye lid that's blinking. I was expecting an extra zero or two on the end for 3 a spin. 30 losing/small win spins taking a second each and it's goodbye money.

At least on feature machines you get to go around the board regularly and not have to put 1000 in to do so.....

PMK
16-07-2010, 11:29 PM
And there is the %age to kick in!!

100 in to a random(on average 95% malarkey)? Might aswell be 1 or a 10k in. Makes no difference.

Give me our standard awp's anyday!

trayhop123
07-02-2011, 12:08 PM
if you can all be arsed ,,,,,,,,,,,,, from first post to last ,,,,,,,, this is well worth a re-read ,,,,

i especially find barafears posts interesting.

gambogaz1
14-04-2011, 10:37 AM
1 of my members has just posted a pic and it instantly reminded me of this thread so I thought I'd share it with you, hopefully he wont mind me putting it here.

This is the winning side of the coin as he had 7 on it

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa442/jackpotty/img0500r.jpg

BFK
14-04-2011, 04:19 PM
Four 28's in six spins???

Cue the 'it's rigged' brigade!!!!

Spyder
14-04-2011, 07:17 PM
thats not rigged.

although to predict in advance its unlikely..

trayhop123
15-04-2011, 10:48 PM
hmmmmmm 4 in 10 ????? ,,,,,,,, told you their rigged :P

trayhop123
18-04-2011, 06:02 PM
still dont fancy a wager ob m8??? :P :lol: :P

Johnny's Amusements
20-04-2011, 11:27 PM
That looks like a Global Draw machine which are, in my opinion "Fixed".

mr lugsy
30-05-2011, 11:26 AM
agreed.

there's also a new chip that blocks 9's. there is a way to tell if it's chipped as there is a slight delay from walking into the shop loaded and leaving it skint.

dazza33
30-05-2011, 04:24 PM
fobts are not worth playing anymore.only the addicts play them and most of them broke so play small stakes. the payout percentages for bookies have risen from 3% in 2002 to 22% in 2011 due to the lower turnover. so less money in machines still same level of profit for bookmakers/global draw. trust me the fobts are the next gambling scandal in the making with dodgy auditing,bent machines, and gambling charities/watchdogs all in it together.

dazza33
30-05-2011, 04:25 PM
ttt

dazza33
30-05-2011, 04:26 PM
tt

bigv038
30-05-2011, 05:08 PM
fobts are not worth playing anymore.only the addicts play them and most of them broke so play small stakes. the payout percentages for bookies have risen from 3% in 2002 to 22% in 2011 due to the lower turnover. so less money in machines still same level of profit for bookmakers/global draw. trust me the fobts are the next gambling scandal in the making with dodgy auditing,bent machines, and gambling charities/watchdogs all in it together.

Where are you getting those figures from? :?

Spyder
30-05-2011, 09:33 PM
fobts are not worth playing anymore

whats that extention to " lol " that someone posted years back?


something like: RAOTFLMAOIAPOPFLSHTIFOMCAWIWLALBOPCOBIDMCWYSWSF!!! !!







Rolling around on the floor laughing my ass off in a pool of piss from laughing so hard that i fell of my chair and while i was laughing a little bit of poop came out but it doesnt matter cause what you said was so funny.

dazza33
30-05-2011, 09:50 PM
the figures are from whills yearly report which shows each aspect of gambling profit,turnover etc. i agree fobts are never profitable but when bought in 2002 the percentage was low enough to encourage play. the problem now is the bookmakers are getting greedier and fobts addicts are being basically robbed. on a whole machine gambling ie pub fruity,quiz machines,fobts is the worst bet it has ever been since their inception.

BFK
30-05-2011, 10:04 PM
What?

That just doesn't make sense.

TINYMcFINEY
31-05-2011, 09:47 PM
I LOST ON THAT ROULETTE TODAY. NEVER AGAIN. I MEAN IT.

keno
01-06-2011, 06:10 PM
Has any one ever been fortunate to fluke a one number bet i.e chips on just a single number and it's come out?

ming
01-06-2011, 08:39 PM
me and my friend were going halves a couple of years ago and he done a max split on 26 29 and 29 came in, thats the closest ive got

Glendale
01-06-2011, 09:10 PM
I LOST ON THAT ROULETTE TODAY. NEVER AGAIN. I MEAN IT.

Thought you had signed a self banning order in every bookies in town?

gaztarra
22-11-2011, 12:46 AM
hi am gaz!im new here,after reading many many forums & blogs,i decided to join this one<there seem to be a few people here that understand they arnt random"these people clearly pllay the machines,& have very very likely played real casino roulette,,its these people i am very interested in speaking to...firstly let me ad that a few year ago i was adicted to these!!& that i wish no debate over there random or not"as to me they certanly are not random to ME or those that av actualy played them!!the reason for my post is this...the simple fact they are not random"fair"can be proved like this"to none players..how can a random outcome game have a % pay & take?its a paradox that can not exsist...either it has an house edge 2.7%,,or it has a pay take ratio"i wont go deeper into this now!!the question is this!ifthey are some how some way rigd<odds skewered against us to take more than a normal real game does"on avridge"is it then possible to litraly turn the tables around"excuse the punt"to some how some way exploit the odds to our favour...in short:the simple fact its rigd to legaly cheat us"legaly.leagaly,legaly...cheat us! is the only reason they can be beat..i dont want to go into depth yet,but all i will say is this..to the players that readingthis"help me & al help you!!i want to try establish characteristics of hot they play,,coral for instance has the same game as will hill,,& the screen jerks to "usualy"rob u on a bet..often the number next to yours is drown"teaser"maybe!..also wen u make your last bet"wen ya nearly dead"it often jumps,jerks,,to give u a win "under ya last stake,bet...ladbrokes seem to have dif machines,like a video play of the result"punters can predict the number from the shoot of point & style...i would realy like to know Exactly wich bookies have wich machines..wich bookies ie machines u rate the best"i only playd william hill & coral<same machines>& importantly player caracteristics like the above & things like>>a number always seems to repeat if u just lost on it & respin or press respin,yet if u ad backed it"it would ov never come out!also the sreaks of red,blacks..yet if u bc with them they never apear ,hence u bc black & red comes & vice versa! also i would luv to here from players who ALWAYS stick to the same bets"any strange accurances"the outside red black players,& coloumn players!and those that mix there bets,,i am not that interestid in the actual numbers,more so the outcomes,win,loss or draw"brake even "as an example:u get a good win,you know in ya heart wen u respin that its likely to give"award"a loss bet!has anyone noticed anything concerning how fast u play<bet>in reguards to the out comes!!!also to those that realise its alot easier to double a fiver to a tenna than 100 to 200 i would love to here your views...also is there any good sites on them or blogs forums"apart from this one"out there,,do u know ov any good videos utube ect:to those that play them"hopefully will hill & coral"global draw"help me to help us both!!i am not a system seller & nor cani bleed thousands from these daily,but i do know things thatothers simply do not about these machines..& i am doing all i can"with your help"to crack these..these machnes defo av antimartingale software in them"any thoughts on it?or wat it implys..also i woulld like to say this,,the ball jumps,screen freezes,,why on eart?would the best games designers in the world have this very unreal,unatractive feature or flaw,given that they do a fantastic job of allreading riping us out of much more than a real game,randomgame of roulette statisticly does!!why?why?why?have such an ugly glitch!wich creates total doubt in the players mind to the fairnes of the game!!PR could it be that they have to av this ugly thing,hence 2 proghrams running that are not in snyc with eachother?ie:r.n.g sender & another proghram.....i believe i have the answere to this and how to beat these,& i believe they can be beat on many levels & in dif styles,,i believe money can be always made grinding & also there is a way to get them to payout big..anyone who helps or just trys to help me build a picture.profile of these..players,adicts,x players..i will share everything with you!!!let me leave u with this to think about,,ever noticed it never jumps on red black bets?& wat it implys..ever noticed wen u up a bet after a loss"chase"it fucks u nearly always,or that any martinglae aproach ie:cover nearly all the numbers<yet it defys beliefe & logic to screw u,or it screws u on double up bets,infact it will kill u always wen u aproach them logicly<system play>ever thought abbout wat all this COULD imply & wat can be deduced from this?because you SHOULD,u realy should..the times u av bin playing and ya shore its read ya mind or and is teasing u,provoking you"but u dismiss the thought as imposible!!is it?last but not least i will say this,,i can beat them but only for very small profit,my understanding is growing further all the time..its just the tip of the ice berg,,the way to always profit on these small & i believe with ma whole heart profit mega big"and daily"is dun in away u wont believe,but wunce told about it,u wont fail to see it!!hence the proof of its exsistance........also no system can beat these machines,,force zero,triger numbers ,bullshit like this if it does work,wont work for long..any machanicle system would bleed them dry...always back X with X amount then do this that the other,,is a pipe dream..think about it,,,,then think on this,,,they are robing us out of more than a true table would and could,if in the mists of there greed they av created a loophole to beat them!!then this can never be closed,hence stopd,as it comes hand in hand with how they cheat us,,they are one..u carnt av one without the other,,lets asume x is the amount of players say10.000 players & that Y is the amount of people that are in the KNOW,designers ect,& normal guys like me that have inadvertantly found ways to win,wich ever way it is,,lets asume only one in every 10.000 players ever gain this insight,edge!i realy believe other people apart from me know ways to beat these,but would never share it let alone post on the net as there scared there little hack,loophole will be closed down,,but unlike me!i know it can not be stopd,,the only way o do it is make it a fair game"wich they never ever will"its simple..if stoping Y"me and hopefully you"cost more than X"there profit"then forget x & y altogether as they do not av a problem....we co-exsist......to those that help me,maybe we will exchange emails,fbook,even phone numbers,,,this is just the begining i hope!!if u believe me"many wont"then know this<they are niether random or fixd pay & take ratios,they are BOTH!/they are hybrids!!the R.N.G"independant & fair software provider sends packs ov numbers"totaly random"the machine gets to choose one..since it can choose"its not entirely random"but because it doesnt have free rain,choice over all numbers at any one time"spin,bet"to chooose from,it CAN NOT ALWAYS control the out come..wich creates chance & a random element!!think over that..then this..they beat us legaly if not fairly,legaly & fair are not the same,so how is it possible to clearly have a rigd game that qualifies as random in the eyes of the law?if they are legaly not aloud to statisticly beat us,how is it possible?yet we,I know it is & that they are doing.but how?if they havnt manipulated the larege law of numbers then how av they legaly manipulated the out comes or strings of small out comes?now think about this,,they are a bandit with a pay take ratio,,x amount goes in & x amount is paid out"with a totaly random game this would be impossible to control,in short:a bandit decides if u win loss or draw,,so do f.o.b,t,s yet they can not always exacute there pre determind choice"if u had unwillingly backd all numbers sent from the rng then it would av to award a win & equaly vice versa!!!IF THEY HAVE DESIGNED THEM TO ULTIMATLY ROB US"WICH CLEARLY THEY HAVE!!THEN WAT AV THEY MANIPULATED,IF STATISTACLY SPEAKING ALL ADDS UP AT THE END"LEGALY"THEN HOW ELSE COULD THEY SEEMINGLY OFFER US A LEGALY SOUND GAME,YET!!CHEAT US?LEGALY,MATHAMATICLY LEGALY?........THE NIGHT I REALISED THE ANSWERE TO THIS!I RELISED WHY & HOW THEY TUCK SO MUCH MORE THAN A REAL GAME OF ROULETTE,WHY THE BALL JUMPS,SCREEN JERK BUT NEVER ON RED BLACK,Y IT REPEATS LOOSING NUMBERS..WHY I ALWAYS SEEMD TO GET SMALL STAKES UP 10;ECT,,BUT NEVER HIGH STAKES 100 SAY,,THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I REALISED WAS HOW THEY HAVE DUN IT,IN SHORT TO GET MORE FROM SUMONE THAN THEY WANT TO GIVE,,U OFFER THEM SOMETHING,U PLAY ON GREED,,BEFORE U TAKE A LOT"EVERYTHING"YOU MUST OFFER A LITTLE,,GIVE..TO TAKE..THEY AV PLAYED ON ARE NUMBER ONE EMOTION!GREED".......TO GET MORE FROM US THAN A TRUE GAME WOULD,THEN THEY AV TO OFFER US MORE THAN A TRUE GAME DOES"WICH LONGTERM OFFERS NOWT"the odds are skewed in there favour....you av just got to know how to play the odds in reverse"kind of"bluf bluff double bluff,i kid u not!.......ps sos about spelling,,
[/list]

BFK
22-11-2011, 07:45 AM
I gave up reading that half way through, have you just cut and paste that from somebody else who can't string a half decent sentence together?

Not rigged.

On the subject of the blackjack game on fobts....

What's the ruling when u split 2 aces? On fobts, u only get dealt 1 additional card but with no chance to bet on, like a double down bet.

I've had this 3 times now and each time this has happened, it's never put a ten/picture card in and I've lost all 6 hands. Probably costing me over a ton in the process.

Do you only get 1 card in casinos if u split aces? Anyone know the official ruling?

xhopz
22-11-2011, 08:15 AM
gaztarra, why would a game that already cannot be beaten be 'rigged?

You say you have joined here because there's plenty on here who agree they are rigged also? Wrong, most on here have half a brain and know these games are random.

You say they are rigged because the graphic that represents a certain number is always the same..the number is chosen before that graphic starts, who cares how the machine presents it?

You claim you know more about these machines than the average punter yet cannot yet get your head round the most fundamental of factors, the game is 100% random and cannot be beaten.

pokerpete
22-11-2011, 10:27 AM
Not a chance I'm going to even attempt to read that barrage of words.

Paragraphs or GTFO

pokerpete
22-11-2011, 10:31 AM
Decided to try, but gave up.

Are you writing in a second language?
Is English your second language?

harry2
22-11-2011, 10:52 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

Northern Monkey
22-11-2011, 11:19 AM
I gave up reading that half way through, have you just cut and paste that from somebody else who can't string a half decent sentence together?

Not rigged.

On the subject of the blackjack game on fobts....

What's the ruling when u split 2 aces? On fobts, u only get dealt 1 additional card but with no chance to bet on, like a double down bet.

I've had this 3 times now and each time this has happened, it's never put a ten/picture card in and I've lost all 6 hands. Probably costing me over a ton in the process.

Do you only get 1 card in casinos if u split aces? Anyone know the official ruling?

Only one card in the casino - unless you draw an ace in which case you can split again. Very overrated hand in my opinion especially if dealer is showing a picture. I always seem to end up with multiple splits for some reason and much more exposure than feels comfortable.

QuizMaster
22-11-2011, 11:29 AM
Always split 8's & A's.

Never split 9's or 10's.

Split everything else if dealer shows 3/4/5/6

Dealer showing 2 is a coinflip - discuss.

blackmogu
22-11-2011, 07:37 PM
Always split 8's & A's.

Never split 9's or 10's.

Split everything else if dealer shows 3/4/5/6

Dealer showing 2 is a coinflip - discuss.

A few minor adjustments to play better strategy than the basic strategy above (assuming European blackjack with 6 decks, BJ pays 3/2)

Split 9's against dealer showing 2,3,4,5,6,8,9
Hit hard 12 against dealer showing 2,3,7,8,9,10,A
Split 8's against all but dealer showing 10,A
Split A's against all but dealer showing A

House edge with these rules is further reduced.

blackmogu
22-11-2011, 07:48 PM
funny how aces always seem to congregate in a shoe. Had to split to 7 before !

tommya
22-11-2011, 09:43 PM
Has any one ever been fortunate to fluke a one number bet i.e chips on just a single number and it's come out?A mate and I put six quid in one and he had gloves on and 5 quid of it went on 22 black on its own I said it had to be fate and it come in.

QuizMaster
23-11-2011, 08:45 AM
funny how aces always seem to congregate in a shoe. Had to split to 7 before !

Yeah, I've had 8's go 4 or 5 times as well. I think it's probably more to do with the fact that you split both these more often than any other card, so the probability is higher that you'll see more duplicate splits.

Northern Monkey
23-11-2011, 11:12 AM
funny how aces always seem to congregate in a shoe. Had to split to 7 before !

Seems to happen just as I have doubled up on mhy regular stake as well. Does generate a bit of a buzz round the table though - the Chinese love it.

gaztarra
25-11-2011, 01:29 PM
hi its me the idiot again! just cos roulette doesnt need to be fixd for the house to always win,does not mean it is not fixd..the bookies are fixt,anyone who plays them and real roulette knows this for a fact!the reasons for them bieng fixed are two fold..firstly(greed)plain old greed,,& the other reason is that system players would grind them all day,it would also be possible for someone to have a masive "fluke win"there would be no control!! think about this logicly,,,they have a pay take ratio"not a house %"if we asume a pay & take ratio on a pub bandit or f.o.b.t equals 20%,,then for every 100 taken,it pays out 20 pound...HOW THE HELL would it be possible to control this in a random game?they can not co-exsist together,its either one or the other!it canot be both...the machines display the % payouts...not the house edge"zero"...its a fruit machine that pays out a % of what it takes,people re-bet with this "onscreen" money,the machine compounds its LEGALY ENTITLED TAKE until its tuck the lot.

gaztarra
25-11-2011, 01:32 PM
gaztarra, why would a game that already cannot be beaten be 'rigged?

You say you have joined here because there's plenty on here who agree they are rigged also? Wrong, most on here have half a brain and know these games are random.

You say they are rigged because the graphic that represents a certain number is always the same..the number is chosen before that graphic starts, who cares how the machine presents it?

You claim you know more about these machines than the average punter yet cannot yet get your head round the most fundamental of factors, the game is 100% random and cannot be beaten. the simple fact it is fixed to rob us..makes it beat able...
but firstly you must realise there rigd,

Spyder
25-11-2011, 10:13 PM
fuckin hell mate, you are a proper knob

gaztarra
26-11-2011, 12:37 PM
fuckin hell mate, you are a proper knob hey mate!!from what ive read of your post!!!& vlads,,,you clearly have played these & you know the score with them,,for instance your last bet seems to win when there is not enuff to realy win jack shit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
from statements like this,its clear you play them/or have dun,,also you know when a good win/number comes in,and u hit respin,it nearly always fucks ya
reading yours & vlads posts are why am here mate!
i know there robing bastards & so do you!
balls in your court mate,tell me to fuck off!or chat with me :?

Spyder
26-11-2011, 10:50 PM
they arent "rigged" however, they are "fixed odds"

roulette is beatable under the folling circumstances only:

a) an infinite amount of credit
b) a fully no limits table

neither of these things apply to bookies roulette

i personally believe the machine doesnt pick a number at random,
i believe it possibly picks if you win or not, then offers a number based on an attractive looking number... to make similar patterns appear to have happened, thus, making it so the RNG isnt exploitable by simply writing down thousands of history numbers and finding a real pattern.

pokerpete
27-11-2011, 02:11 PM
the RTP (return to player) on every bet on a standard European roulette wheel is 97.3%
so whether you bet on a single number, a corner, a column, an "evens" bet, your return over the long run will be 97.3%

Obviously over a few hundred games you'll see a massive amount of statistical 'noise' but over a 100 billion games, at 1 a spin, you'll get 97.3 billion back.

If the RTP of a roulette game you're playing is anything other than 97.3% it's not random.
If it is, it is.

/thread

gaztarra
27-11-2011, 02:31 PM
only somebody who has played them & real roulette would know what you have wrote!!! you agree whith me there not random!it decides to award a win ,loss or draw"even stevens"ect..then chooses a number that best fits its decision..
a "number"that is/maybe choosen in respect to the overal statistical balance,one which gives the best representation of random result.

does the machine choose numbers that create patterns,red,red,red,red ect & alike,to entice you!!!i do not believe this is the case"ive gave this much thought & testing"playing".................................................. ........
i believe it could possibly choose"sometimes"the number next to yours"on purpose,to fool,suck u in,,,,people are people...all in all i would say that they do not do this,or present patterns"previos spin results"to entice us!but i could be wrong,
i am asuming its ok to say that u agree that weather its 20% payout ratoi or indeed 2.7%..that the results are connected to your bet,in direct coralation...hence!seemingly unfair & non random
i am going to be cheeky and ask which bookies u playd at!!!!

trayhop123
27-11-2011, 04:13 PM
random/not random / fixed / not fixed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the debate goes on

and who honestly cares anymore ?


bottom line ,,,,,,,,,,,,, theres no sign of the bookies getting rid of em ,,,,,,,,

that should tell you all you need to know.

pokerpete
27-11-2011, 05:19 PM
I don't play roulette either on real tables or FOBTs because I don't like games that I can't beat.
The reason I like poker, is that for me it's +100%
roulette has a house edge that can't be beaten.

FOBT doesn't need to be rigged, because roulette as a whole is fundamentally biased towards the house.

The number drawn on FOBT roulette isn't affected by where your chips are, how much you have in the bank, if you won/lost on the previous spin, what colour socks you're wearing or what animal limb you have round your neck.

The only way to beat roulette is not to play it, but you won't do that, because you're a gambler and you think one day, you'll beat the odds and win big.

Spyder
27-11-2011, 09:24 PM
the comment about thinking the machine might pick a number "next to yours"

if you were to bet one spot, say 17... and the numbers came in 18 16 15 14 13 19 20 21 over and over and over, then fair enough, but if you bet 6 or 7 numbers spread out then you are always going to be "just one away"

the human brain strives to find a pattern in everything like this, this s one of the simple observations

i also assume you believe it makes it rigged if you bet every number apart from 1 and it comes in on that one?

silly thing is, that it does come in if you put the chips on one spot only.. ive done, one spin, 6 on one number, and it came in


there is defintely a different "feel" to some FOBT compared with a real roulette table.. however, till its been hacked and reverse engineered, we will never find out exactly why.

maverick69
27-11-2011, 09:47 PM
they are rigged end of story...i played them for about a 3 month period, prob 2-3 times a week. too many patterns of say u have a number with 3 quid on it and u got a 26 pound spin it will give u a number next to the 3 quid and give u a number with 80p on it returning u a 2 quid prof. it will suck u in......repeat reapeat reapeat. then it may give u a 1.40 number dead again dead dead. they are very clever. u can tell when there on the take. lucks got nothing to do with it. there rigged simple.its y i dont play them

pokerpete
27-11-2011, 09:58 PM
how many spins would you estimate you had in that time period?

maverick69
27-11-2011, 10:09 PM
say 20 -50 spins a session take an average say 35 x 3 95. 95x4 380 x 3 is around 1000 for arguements sake. 1000 spins.....i saw from playing with mixed results....that say u backed 15-31 which i did....the ammount of times it would go in 14 was more than normal. that was the only numbers ive ever played on them. in that 3 month period i lost in the region of 2000....which isnt really much. but it was a learning curve. it taught me enuf never to play one again.i covered 14 numbers....if i was winning i was increasing my bets....move i took out of one was 2000 pounds.... i could work out how much i lost as i recorded all of it on excel. the ammount of tiers when i was backing that area was silly....compared to a casino situation. where it varies more randomly.

maverick69
27-11-2011, 10:15 PM
if u want even more conclusive proof, a good freind of mine that doesnt even gamble...his collegue whos used to work for bet fred. told him there rigged and he was the regional manager. hes not the sort of person that need to bull shit either. this comment put me right off them also

Spyder
27-11-2011, 10:57 PM
what a load of shit.

maverick69
27-11-2011, 11:10 PM
its the truth....but then again u can go oin kidding urself that u can win long term on these machines. im sure i will give u a pound when ur selling the big issue

ob
27-11-2011, 11:59 PM
Ive never felt like they were rigged, I've won in the long term on them for sure, but there again Ive not played them much, just every few months or so...

As an aside got the 500 on cops and robbers ultraspins in east grinstead today off nothing much in, cheers to whoever did the spoons, as u inspired me to have a munt :P

pokerpete
28-11-2011, 07:24 AM
if u want even more conclusive proof, a good freind of mine that doesnt even gamble...his collegue whos used to work for bet fred. told him there rigged and he was the regional manager. hes not the sort of person that need to bull shit either. this comment put me right off them also

The fact that you think "conclusive proof" is me taking the word of a guy on a forum who's non-gambling friend knows a guy who used to be a regional manager for a betting shop firm, shows that you can't be engaged in sensible conversation about this.

Also that you think 1000 games is a suitable sample to make any conclusions on.

Part of my work involves gambling compliance, and I deal with billions of games and I have direct contact with statistitians and test houses.

I think I'm better placed to know what "conclusive proof" is, but I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you.
Your mind is clearly made up.

Been-Grant-Mitchell'd!
28-11-2011, 10:08 AM
As an aside got the 500 on cops and robbers ultraspins in east grinstead today off nothing much in, cheers to whoever did the spoons, as u inspired me to have a munt :P

That's ok Rich! Just give me half of your Coral profits and we'll call it quits!

gaztarra
01-12-2011, 03:57 PM
what a load of shit.
i agree spyder,, :D

gaztarra
01-12-2011, 04:13 PM
here goes an atempt to to explain how and why they can be beat...these machines will pay out when you least expect them to"a single number backd can repeat,"anything possible"BUT!the will never payout when chasing them,forcing the machine,,uping bets"martingale"cover "more"than less numbers,,feeding the machine money & repeat betiing,,loose,loose,loose..............
any logical atempt to try win,,& ul be crushd without mercy,the machine will defy gravity let alone probability to kill you.....the machines play with you(your stake in reguards to your total bank)to get you to ultimatly chase,then it truly screws you..
to beat them u must "apear"sumwhat random in your style of bets/aproach!!
with these machines you may make a 36/1 bet,example:you cover every number except number 5,yet five comes out,,or u only bc number 5"a single number"yet it wins...........................................
in short:the odds are never real odds,,a 36 to one bet,may actualy be a 50/50....for "or" against you!!!a red or black bet or any 50/50...is never ever realy a 50/50 chance,,it could be 99% in your favour or against......
the odds are skewed!!!
these machines decide if you will win loose or draw!!!DEPENDING ON YOUR PREVIOSE BETS,OUTCOMES,WINS,LOSSES,,,AND YOUR BANK!
ive said enuff!

gaztarra
01-12-2011, 04:20 PM
some proof am the real deal.....go to any coral or will hill,,,,,,,,,,put ten pound in"only ten"bet one pound on 19 to 36,& one pound on coloumn c...hit spin!!!!!!!!!!!!!i prompise you that zero will never ever ever ever ever come in.....you can repeat this on thousands of machines ,zero will never come in.............
you will either win 3 pound"coloumn c hit"or draw even"19 to 24 hit"or loose 1 to 12 hit
ATLEAST 70% of the time u will win or draw even..........
do the maths!its in your favour..
thats just the tip of the ice berge!

trayhop123
01-12-2011, 05:16 PM
i certainly wont waste my own money trying that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but would love to hear stories from people who will

trayhop123
01-12-2011, 05:23 PM
think about what your saying


if 70% of the time ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you either get a spin that draws or a spin that makes you profit


why would you be telling us ? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, wouldn't you just be sat on 1 terminal all day until closing , making a steady wage ????



with respect m8 ,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,, erm george , there's a fellow here that needs to borrow your mr cadburys parrot outfit.

pokerpete
01-12-2011, 05:24 PM
No, I had my doubts before, but now I'm certain.

This is a comedy Troll job.

Well played mate, you had us going.

Now I read back, it's a really classy job.
A mixture of gentle prodding and wildly over the top stuff.
The terrible spelling and grammar is a nice touch too.

Good effort!

Marcossvon
01-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Loose/lose. A pet hate.

harry2
01-12-2011, 10:45 PM
Loose/lose. A pet hate.

My pet hate. Shooting offence IMHO.

Once walked in bookies had 4 on 26 and the corners, 20 bet and it came in. Is it fixed ?

Spyder
01-12-2011, 11:19 PM
ive heard if you manage to actually beat these machines they give you aids..

theres software in the screen to take a fingerprint imprint, if you are logged as winning too much by their system the screen secretes a chemical that gives you aids slowly over time, so you might continue to win, but you will get aids.

also, the roulette on the tv is fixed.. when you sign up, you have to give your address, the tv channel has about 20 remote-signal vans that drive around, if a known "professional gambler" tries to join (they have access to gamestec's profit and loss so get you to a nearby postcode at least) and place bets they drive the van to outside your house and transmit a different numebr over the airwaves/hack your sky dish so that you loose over and over, you can bet on any system (even that REAL system off ebay) but you will still loose time after time.

the bookies giving people aids is a FACT.. i got told by a guy who walked past somewhere where there was a secret meeting of the owners of the major bookies, we know its a fact and that its true cause the guy that walked past the meeting is a stand up guy proper pillar of the community, he robbed 300 from his own mother once, but gave the money he had stolen back after he won 500 in a gala bingo off 4 in a reel king potty.. since then he's only stolen smaller amounts of money from her, but its ok cause he's a nice guy... anyway, that makes it true

Spyder
01-12-2011, 11:20 PM
loose

harry2
02-12-2011, 09:27 AM
George, how far are you into this years "Nudgemans Christmas Cracker" ?

explayer
04-12-2011, 12:32 PM
Don't know where i stand on this - i haven't played the things for years and hate the effect they have on betting shops. I have seen mates play and it does seem that the 'worst' numbers come up a lot :? - however gamblers remember the good and bad but not the indifferent - same with horses , football etc , so memories change in the telling and recalling of tales. However if they are straight then they pay back around 97% to the punter and it doesn't look like that to a casual observer. Most importantly they attract addicted types of gambler that fruit machines used to attract - the same staring , non blinking eyes watching the ball/reels. They are horrible things which encourage people to hang around what they consider 'their' machine and harass winners to 'lend' them some money. Betting shops used to tell people not playing to sling their hook , but now crowds gather round watching :shock: , i can't think of anything more boring than watching roulette without a financial interest!

Booby Tipster
05-12-2011, 11:03 PM
6 to 0, 0 to 6 on the Globals. cover neighbours! 11 13 31 33 all trigger each other. 5000 a day if you're disciplined.

BFK
05-12-2011, 11:07 PM
Excellent, I'll try it and then put the 5k in rainbow riches to try and get 3 yeahs.

gaztarra
07-12-2011, 02:31 PM
unfortunitly guys ma poor spelling is for reel,,,the reason a told you that about the machine,was to actualy give real players the chance to see that i kinda do know wat am on about!!!and the reason i do not sit there and milk this one single reverse algorythem day and day out is simple"thats just the tip of the tip of the tip of the ice berge,
THIS ONE SINGLE BET/ALGORYTHEM is all u need to make a constant daily profit..the bet must be reapeted on dif machines,this takes time & is a hastle,if u get a win"cashout"a loss"cashout"even stevens"cashout",,this is boring & to say the least!!!
this is how i first started out,& was the first algorythem i reversed"figured out"
i do not play machine to machine in a systematic way"but it can be dun"
& in the results of doing this you will see very very strange things

the way i play the machine,is aparantly and seemingly almost random and un stable,totaly uncalculated"seemingly"....i combine bets to reverse the skewed odds to my favour!!i do not try pick numbers ect,or any stupidness like that...to every extent i apear to play normal"no system"

the reason i share this is simple,it seems and feels like theres only me out there who can win,or that is daft enuff to say so,,the players who know in the heart it isnt random"despite legal claims,bla,bla,,"are the ones i wish to reach!!!
its impossible that i am the only one who has figured out how to win,but maybe i think that am the only one who understands why this is possible.others have there little tricks"and are scared to expose them incase the machines are re programd!!!!well done to those people"and for fucksake contact me"
also the reasons i keep giving hints and clues is simple <proof>im not trying to tease people!!!
ive read many blogs before joining this one,i know how hard it is for you to believe they can be beat"weather i can or not"
i doubt bieng on this blog is going to bring me or anyone any help!
but ya never know!
try the bet ive said,,,thats all a can realy say,,why this bet works i will not say,but there is a reason,and one that u will understand!

gaztarra
07-12-2011, 02:39 PM
i have realy realy thought about a website on these,but i would need alot of help"spelling for one"
also a believe the would shut me down..
a forum were people report there daily results good and bad,real members!
the true secrets to these machines lie in collective knowlidge!
anyone in the bradford area who plays them!get in touch!

gaztarra
07-12-2011, 02:50 PM
i can and will make a video ov me playing and predicting the out comes,,
i know i should not!!
but its the best proof i can give,without actualy showing ya,,
i doubt even if i told u all i know and can do weather u would believe me and never even try it,
so a video is the only way forward!!
i wont rush & it will be dun rite,crystal clear me predicting and winning
from crediting the machine to cashing out video proof!
that i can and do win,,,and that i know how and why its totaly and always will be possible!!
the can never stop me!and they wont even try...

the way in wich they are rigd to take more from you than a true game ever realy does,,is the only reason they CAN be beat!
they go hand in hand!to stop me winning they would have to make the game truely random and settle for millions instead ov billions in profit!

Spyder
07-12-2011, 10:48 PM
i can and will make a video ov me playing and predicting the out comes,


please tell me you arent talking about the video-skip as the wheel spins?? this is because the RNG picks number and the pc used an animation to show the resulting number, the machine starts with the wheel in a certain position, then the loaded animation is put on top, resulting in A) a slight visable skip, and B) the position on the wheel being visable to anyone who's played more than 3 or 4 spins and been concentrating...

you have to actually guess the outcome BEFORE you press the bet button... but if you could do that, you definitely wouldnt be posting on here..

Scott
07-12-2011, 10:52 PM
Theres an endless queue of people who know where the ball will land the second it starts rolling, if you can predict where it will land BEFORE it starts rolling its worth Millions, and you'd have to be a fool to mention it like said.

trayhop123
07-12-2011, 11:18 PM
so to combat what i said about making a steady income ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, your now saying change terminal after every bet ,,,,, win lose or draw ,,,,,,,,,,,,, and you will still be up 70% overall .




ok , so 1 question for you ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how many terminals would i have to play in a day to make that percentage ,,,,,,,, and make a reasonable days wage ? ,,,,,, ie 50quid plus.


please dont answer with just ''try it yourself ''

you must know the answer already ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, because you yourself must have started out with this method ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, being as this is only the tip of your money making iceburg

pokerpete
08-12-2011, 07:09 AM
This is 100% a troll-job.
Just trying to work out if it's a sock puppet of an existing member, or a passing troll from outside.

Do the video though.
Will be fun.
As Spyder says though, predictions must be made BEFORE you hit the button, not after.

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 12:31 PM
cumon guys give me sum credit!!the fucking imagrants like flys round shit in central town bookies,ladbrooks,bodog ect"that have the pre play animated upload,all trying to tell you wich number will come AFTER you hit spin!!
my video will consist of 3 different bookies,and many of each!
i will voice predict out comes!
i will/am going to use a simple hand signal"touch the screen ect
so that skeptics can not say my voice has bieng scripted in"after the fact"
the video will not teach you how to do it/but what you will see,will leave u amazed!
and hopefully excited because you guys know me"kind off"
the video will not be that of systematic bets"like the one i gave you"field bets i call them..
this could easily be faked"hence only record the good out comes..
my intention is to credit the machine,make bet,then predict at times the exact number"spot on"sometimes a group or 2 or 3..simply put,i will predict win,loss...not always the number with wich it brings the win or loss,,
i am not predidting the r.n.g...i am predicting the wins and losses & at times the exact numbers,,
i have one question to you all!
if i do this,were do we go from there...............will i finaly have loyal believers/follows?
are we going to work together as a group?exclusively!
because all of you that have realy realy played these,even though realy bad losses,,the experiance wich you have is valuable and much can be learnd from it"you just arnt aware of this at the moment"
ANYBODY who actualy tries the bet i told u about,will never ever see zero come in!!and on avridge to every 10 machines played with ten pound each,you will be in profit of between 10 to 15 pound!
not much,but adds up & the golden goose"GARUNTEED"
but the reel golden goose is the proof THEY CAN BE BEAT,SEEING IS BELIEVING..
also to the none players who sware the random,the stasticle results to this singular field bet"many machines"despite zero NEVER bieng choose,will show beyound doubt there everything but random!
the bet is the first one i ever devised to not just prove a unfair bias"thats simple!!!
but to design a bet that depending on certain principles"asumptions"that if indeed corect,then this bet should work!!proving my asumptions correct!
and unleashing there secrets!
by tiping the bias odds my way!litraly turning the tables around!
i dont realy want to make a videao"its two much direct proof,to soon!
i want you players to do the bet i said!!!you will know in ya heart that i know how to always win!!
and thats all it takes,av asked no money!yet gave u a bet that ALONE will generate a steady income,despite prove the can be beat and that all is far from what they seem with these machines!
MY NEXT POST WILL BE MY LAST!ANY QUESTIONS,REQUEST FOR THE VIDEO I AM TO MAKE!please go try the bet i told u about,after 4 or 5 machines you will begin to see the obviose!that what i know is the holly grail!the guy who carnt spell!!!

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 12:35 PM
No, I had my doubts before, but now I'm certain.

This is a comedy Troll job.

Well played mate, you had us going.

Now I read back, it's a really classy job.
A mixture of gentle prodding and wildly over the top stuff.
The terrible spelling and grammar is a nice touch too.

Good effort!
u do me too proud mate!
although i can not spell for shit and can not rite in mathamaticle notations,i am far from thick!and if this was indeed a scam,then i understand wat you are saying!and yes it would be clever of me!
but its NOT,IVE GAVE U THE ONE THING NO SCAMERR BULLSHITER WOULD EVER DO"PROOF"FOR NOTHING,COST U NOTHING!

Master of The Game
08-12-2011, 12:37 PM
Homerton Hospital, Mental Ward... can't remember the address but show them your posts when you get there and they WON'T turn you away like they did me.

trayhop123
08-12-2011, 12:40 PM
he is right on one thing

none of us has tried the bet




it wont be me trying it of course ,,,,,,,,,,,,, but i would love someone to

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Homerton Hospital, Mental Ward... can't remember the address but show them your posts when you get there and they WON'T turn you away like they did me.
for ages a played and lost,and played real roulette,won and lost,,,
i knew the bookies were well rigd in some way,
the night i had ma eurika moment!
and the realisation of the implications of me actualy bieng correct were indeed scary!
when you realise you have dun the impossible,,you feel insane!
its a thin line between madnes and genius,& the only deciding factor is weather you win or loose!sucseed or fail!

Master of The Game
08-12-2011, 12:49 PM
OK mate, you keep hallucinating and thinking you're Einstein. By all means put your bet on here and prove us all wrong, I'll be the 1st to admit it, apologise and personally teach you how to spell.

You seem to have awfully good vocabulary for someone who can't spell though..

trayhop123
08-12-2011, 12:53 PM
wait a minute ,,,,,,,,,,,,, im getting old and a bit slow ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so please run us through the bet again


why do u put ten pound in if your only having a 2quid bet , then moving on to the next terminal ?



in clear consise english please run us throug the bet again from start to finish

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 01:16 PM
am just old mate,good vocabuary,
to meet me you would never believe i can barely spell,,
its just one of those things,
maths am good at and reading,just not spelling
fucking paradox in itself!
ten pound bet,,2 pound staked,,you either loose 2 pound"wich should hapen one third of the time,33.3333333333333333% of the time"on avridge"
or you draw even,wich should happen around one in every six times!on avridge,so say 17 %
or win 3 pound every 17 %
or win three pound every 33.3333% of the time
all in all"it cancels itself out"excluding zero"


here is wat will realy happen!
you will"see" the machine never ever ever choose zero!
you will win 3 pound atleast 40 % of the time"if not more!u will draw around 30 % and loose around 30 %
you will be in profit from this in balance
you will see that the amount of time the machines visably chooses a number between13-18 & 19-24 is beyond beliefe!
you will see there far from random,infact ul av proof!statisticle proof,and proof i can beat them,from your profit!

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 01:20 PM
why share this knowlidge freely????????????
simple! i can afford to!
its a tiny morsal of proof!
although it gives you the golden goose of allways winning,
it does not show why you win or it works!
also many will not even ever try it!
those that do try it!
will know am the real thing!

Master of The Game
08-12-2011, 01:20 PM
So what is the bet??????? And if a 0 comes in it disproves this as a load of bollocks???? Why would it never spin 0?

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 01:22 PM
read threw ma post for it!
and wen zero never ever comes in!
wat u guna do then?
insult me!
everything you think you do and do not know about these machines will be turnd on its head after u av dun this
so please refrain from any insults until after mate!
because a promise very soon ul wish i was ya best mate!
go do the bet

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 01:39 PM
ive gave u the proof,
i will do a video aswell,but not yet!
your either with me,or against me!
this is my last post!
and your choice,
just do the bet,
ul see!
the reason for the poor spelling was this!
any one who would atempt to read and follow,clearly has played these and know there not random,these people are the ones that can win and also help to further mine and there knowlidge!
any bookies proghram monitors"alarms"or hopefully whistle blowers reading forums,hope fully dont give me a second look,
ilitrate thicko!
or it goes the other way,good hopefully,
a proghramer gets in touch(highly unlikely)
or could it be that i simply have poor spelling?
all that u can be certain of is that that bet works!
the balls in your courts now

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 02:59 PM
OK mate, you keep hallucinating and thinking you're Einstein. By all means put your bet on here and prove us all wrong, I'll be the 1st to admit it, apologise and personally teach you how to spell.

You seem to have awfully good vocabulary for someone who can't spell though..
am not trying to into a debate or anything!
just a thought or two,einstein "pure fucking genius"if ever there was one!
stated you can only win at roulette if u steal the cash.
firstly i admire this ONE man more than any other genius!
now weather real roulette can or can not be beat!!is not the issue here,
though in all respect to enstein..."Albert you excpect me to believe that the faster i travel,the slower i will age!!!yet you excpect me to believe roulette can not be beat?come on albert.fairs,fair!

the point bieng that,i do believe in e=mc squared!
yet it seems absurd!impossible!

these machines can be beat!the realy can..the designed to rob you,and thats the only reason the can be beat!if the was truly random!!u would not be able to win,but they would make much less,much,much less!talking billions

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 03:05 PM
i am a genius aswell!!!!!would u expect me to have an english gramer scholor!!!with a mathamaticle mind!
or sum retuarded handicap,un normal!!un fitting,,
i can beat these and it is worth millions if marketed corectly!!
wat else does that make me!




never ever judge a book by its cover!!nothing is ever what it seems!lol

trayhop123
08-12-2011, 05:04 PM
but for some reason ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, your still not answering the fundamental question



DO WE JUST HAVE **1** 2quid bet per terminal and then move to another ??????

or do we have all 5 bets before moving on???????????????

feeder22
08-12-2011, 05:19 PM
the point bieng that,i do believe in e=mc squared!



http://www.inquisitr.com/144267/scientists-say-emc2-might-be-wrong-say-neutrinos-are-faster-than-light/

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 06:56 PM
you must do the whole tena!!never double or change the bet!not ever..
upto five looses in a row at two pound a bet,,it will never ever happen though!ul see...also i must add that the zero will never come out on the first bet!the rest its possible but very rare!
you have ten pound ,when its played,cashout!
no matter wat the score,up,down,level,cashout and move on,

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 07:05 PM
the point bieng that,i do believe in e=mc squared!



http://www.inquisitr.com/144267/scientists-say-emc2-might-be-wrong-say-neutrinos-are-faster-than-light/
im not realy concernd with nothing can move faster than the speed of light,,im more concernd with time slowing down as you aproach the speed of light or in the orbit ov a huge mass!
i know electronic clocks slow down,but does biology?they have proved nuclear clocks loose time"they decay"...but is that biological?
electrons,protons ect could all operate slower at the speed of light & especialy be alterd by a large mass,wich is wat the speEd of light gives the object,human or not"huge mass"
but does biology slow down,we are electrons protons nutrons ect,,,
einstein was amazing,a carnt get ma head round it tody,yet i know its true,has there is proof,
imagine 100 year ago working that out!
mind blowing now,never mind then!

Spyder
08-12-2011, 07:57 PM
i still dont understand exactly what you are claiming..

what is the profit/ratio on this,

5 x 2 bets and then walk...

maximum expected win would be 72.. but you never state this

what is the take from your system, and what does it not spinning zero in have to do with anything?

gaztarra
08-12-2011, 09:06 PM
just try the bet!!!
zero not ever cpming,proves none random,and strange event!
bc in a few days!

Spyder
08-12-2011, 09:43 PM
so you tell us to bet 5 spins of a certain bet and it wont spin zero... thats fucking pointless.. which numbers WILL it spin in? lol

POINTLESS

Spyder
08-12-2011, 10:18 PM
some proof am the real deal.....go to any coral or will hill,,,,,,,,,,put ten pound in"only ten"bet one pound on 19 to 36,& one pound on coloumn c...hit spin!!!!!!!!!!!!!i prompise you that zero will never ever ever ever ever come in.....you can repeat this on thousands of machines ,zero will never come in.............
you will either win 3 pound"coloumn c hit"or draw even"19 to 24 hit"or loose 1 to 12 hit
ATLEAST 70% of the time u will win or draw even..........
do the maths!its in your favour..
thats just the tip of the ice berge!


why only ten pounds? are you trying to limit our losses, (loosess) or does the bank supposedly have something to do with the outcome

so for a 2 bet, you either lose, draw even, or win 1 profit???

is this the amazing info you claim fame for?

i mean, come on??? its pathetic...

zero never coming in, even if this is true, all it does is remove the house edge.. you might think this is great.. but you will need a very long string of "good luck" to make it worth doing.. fine, so on a good fast running machine you can get a couple of spins a minute.. but playing these things its impossible to not draw attention to yourself..


one other thing, you claim this works in all bookies in all machines? theres about 6 different types of FOBT, all the roulette games are different? different programmers... seems a bit odd that you found a universal "trick"

the human brain strives to make any numerical equation make sense, it will find patterns, no matter how vague, and try to make them make sense.. the long term effect of roulette and any gambling involving numbers is that you will remember certain numbers either coming in or not coming in, whichever it is, the brain mistakenly sees this as a base pattern...

it is common for people to say that FOBT is fixed (clue is in the name) although the term "fixed odds beting terminal" refers to the fact that the games are not on a variable percentage payout, like progressive play on AWP fruit machines, they "reflex" to the amount of money paid in, and accumilate for a win or series of wins to pay back the return-to-player value...

FOBT will "randomly" pay back to a fixed percentage over time, and in time, the simple house edge should mean the house wins, plus pretty much every roulette player bets over their own head.g

to simplify your strategy, all you need is a single die, numbers 1 2 and 3 lose, 4 draws even, 5 & 6 payback 150% of the bet.. roll the dice ten times..

statisticly the odds are 50-50 to not lose,

i dare you, infact, i DOUBLE dare you to do this FOBT system with 2x 50 bets.. and video that... you will not be so confident about the house edge then

afterall, anyone who gambles a lot will be willing to try your 70% payout method with 2 bets, but as with ANY form of non-controlled payback gambling, THE LONGER YOU GAMBLE THE HIGHER CHANCE OF LOSING

to the companies who make these machines, you are their target customer... you think you have a chance.. which is unlucky for you..

you state you could try that betting sequence with "thousands of machines" if you did this, im pretty sure you would have thrown away 10xthousands.


The best case senerio of your system is that you have stumbled across a low stakes bet that can for some reason avoid part of the 1st 18 numbers, this wouldnt be too difficult to believe, as even a 3 number drift pushes your odds of not losing to a pretty good advantage.. if zero NEVER comes in, then fair enough, ive always believed there would be triggers like this involved in the program, to avoid patterns appearing however, you will find that if this is the case, it is heavily controlled by other similar subroutines in the program, and although its a pretty far-out concept, id assume the programmer would make this so that higher stakes bets had different triggers..


you will either win 3 pounds from "3rd/12 hit" or draw even "19 to 24 hit" or lose "1 to 12 hit"

AT LEAST 70% of the time you will win or draw even..........
do the maths! its in your favour..

not really a valid point, as mathematicly you will WIN 1/3 of the time, LOSE 1/3 of the time and DRAW 1/3 of the time..

maverick69
08-12-2011, 10:39 PM
ive got a lucky 8 on 180 pot that i might do tomoz.....well try for a bit. i will try ur theory out and see if it works. the worst that can happen is i waste 20 quid and some time

pokerpete
09-12-2011, 07:32 AM
At the same time a a previously banned 'lively poster' returns.
Coincidence?
Maybe

Master of The Game
09-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Definitely.

justcurious
28-02-2012, 11:51 AM
Dear friends..

In these FOBTs, there is a fixed payout percentage (or sometimes called theoretical %RPT settings in these machines. That means any point of time, machine decides how much to payback and how much to retain and random numbers is just a layer to produce output for audit purpose. Payout is up to the machine and operator to decide while we all are running after how random is random numbers and auditors satisfy the regulators by showing the non skewed numbers over a long period.

The TRUTH IS that, a fixed payout can never be achieved without manipulating the result. FOBTs work same as slot machines and results can be manipulated to adjust payout and this happens with the knowledge of the regulatory bodies. Once outcome is allowed to adjust, it means the machine knows the bets a player has placed and outcome can be based on the bets placed and not random. How amazing!! Any possibility for class action suit?

The proof that %RPT is fixed and can be adjusted and hence the results can be manipulated is seen from these below. I am not just giving my personal opinion but with proof from documents, discussion with regulatory authorities as well as manufacturers.

1. Starting a new online RNG casino - (http://rouletteforum.cc/index.php?topic=1598.0) . This was already given by one of the forum member before.

2. Declarative Statement on FOBT from Ballytech (http://www.ballytech.com/) who is one of the the manufacturers of FOBT machine can be downloaded here. (http://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dec%20statement%20bally%20roulette&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridagamingwatch.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F10%2Fdec-statement-bally-roulette-10-6-09.pdf&ei=RyhMT-alI8-srAf76LmkDw&usg=AFQjCNEzhcukpwihcAko7jguV01_q2MDYg&sig2=O4k5ouvwktgpyU8DvMgKxQ&cad=rja) - especially everything that says about RNG and payout.

3. I also had a personal chat with one of the technical staff from a manufacturer who confirmed that there are 5 default payout percentages and it can be adjusted easily.

4. I live in Singapore and 2 casinos have opened here in the past 3 years. These FOBT machines are under the category of electronic games and the regulatory body in Singapore (CRA) has published the standards. Version 1.2 can be downloaded from the below link - (http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/content.aspx?sid=116)
Please download the PDF file to understand clearly on payout percentage and random number generation as well as possible manipulation of outcome. This standards document is from Casino Regulatory Authority in Singapore and can be trusted 100% to understand how these machines work. Please read sections payout and random number generators. I also had several discussions with the regulatory authorities in Singapore in the past 2 months on these unfair machines and it is still ongoing.

If anyone like to have further information contact me personally.

Roll_With_It_Russ
29-02-2012, 10:05 PM
take your story to the press, worth 20-30k if you have the evidence

if you worked in the industry and had access to the infomation to prove anything was not as it seems, would be easy money.

the reason why nothing like this happens is because there is nothing bent about them.

AMK
29-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Keep on topic please Rob and stop talking about 'Keybets' on high pots.